You got to read this

[Mebbid]

I watch my fish everyday and love them to death and wonder if they can love me back. I definitely feel the love from my dojo loaches and bettas. They greet me at the front of the tank every day eagerly wanting food and acting silly. My Jack Dempsey does this as well.

There has been a debate for quite sometime though as to whether or not fish can feel pain though.

I found this article, let me just say I can't verify the websites credibility, but it was a great read.

Do fish have feelings too? It's a slippery question for science | Daily Mail Online

After being in this hobby for a good amount of time and having my fair share of lost fish I am a believer that feel can suffer and do feel pain. They can also feel joy when their owner comes to the tank or during feeding time. That's my opinion.

What do you guys think?

Before commenting: let's not turn this into a heated debate. Be kind and respectful when answering. I've seen too many threads taken down because of heated arguments.


Caleb

Sent via TARDIS

Yes I do believe fish have feelings and emotion. If you've ever watched a stressed fish or one that gets bullied you'd be able to see that they can feel pain.

My rams, betta and killis all love to come and say hey. The killis especially they look at me like puppy's and they're so photogenic I can't help myself. I do feel bad because I give them more attention then my betta but he's still gets a bit. Got shunned a bit I guess for eating some RCS.

And on top of that, I've seen some fish in the past act a completely different way if one of their tank mates has passed or isn't around for some reason. It's actually quite neat to see that.

I'm a fisherman as well. So if they gang up on you they'll gang up on me too. Fish can feel pain, I'm positive, but are also quite resilient to it. Good fishing practices (not extending fights, using barbless hooks, avoiding treble hooks, etc) will significantly reduce the pain they feel. And finally, the recreational fishing industry is one of the greatest conservation forces in existence. Nothing gets people to care about the natural world like experiencing it, and fishing is one of the best ways to experience nature, and one of the only ways that allows you to interact safely with wild animals. Fishing is part of what inspired me to be a marine scientist.

If it weren't finals season I would flood this thread with empirical research, but I'm too busy writing a bajillion papers. If this thread is still relevant in a week I'll come back and throw some science around. Long story short though the article is absolutely correct.

All organisms have emotions. Are a fish's emotions as evolved and complex as ours, i doubt it, but i do think they feel simple forms of joy and despair

That's a good point that I would like to focus on. We use these words to describe emotions, and attribute them to being similar to human emotions. When it comes down to it, Joy and Despair are incredibly complex emotions. I doubt that fish are capable of feeling emotions as deep as those.

I mean, we were made to be more relationally emotional, since we come from a long lineage of animals with very complex group hierarchical behaviors. But then, lots of fish have those too. I don't think we really know enough about brains, neuroscience, evolutionary psychology, or animal behavior to really say much about this stuff for sure.

+1

If we as humans weren't made to be emotional, we never would have survived as a species with our babies being nothing but bait for larger animals. That's a big difference from fish that can survive relatively unassisted from day 1 of their birth.

 

[Mebbid]

I watch my fish everyday and love them to death and wonder if they can love me back. I definitely feel the love from my dojo loaches and bettas. They greet me at the front of the tank every day eagerly wanting food and acting silly. My Jack Dempsey does this as well.

I trained the school of african cichlids I was watching for a while to come for food when I tapped on the glass since a lot of them liked to hang out in their caves that wasn't always visible form the front.

They hid whenever anyone but me came in front of the tank and then acted super excited for food as well.

However, whenever anyone that wasnt me tapped on the tank to give the signal for food they all came out and acted exactly like they did for me when I was there. If fish feel love then imho; it's through their stomach.

There has been a debate for quite sometime though as to whether or not fish can feel pain though.

I found this article, let me just say I can't verify the websites credibility, but it was a great read.

Do fish have feelings too? It's a slippery question for science | Daily Mail Online

After being in this hobby for a good amount of time and having my fair share of lost fish I am a believer that feel can suffer and do feel pain. They can also feel joy when their owner comes to the tank or during feeding time. That's my opinion.

What do you guys think?

Science is a ways away from answering this definitively. There's guesses, but not a whole lot of evidence to follow.

Yes I do believe fish have feelings and emotion. If you've ever watched a stressed fish or one that gets bullied you'd be able to see that they can feel pain.

Are you sure that bullying is a good signifier of pain? Fish react in a very specific way whenever they are startled, scared, or touched (there's even a snake that hunts fish using this trait) I can only think of a couple instances where I have seen a fish actually injured by another fish, but mostly it's just posturing and chasing.

And on top of that, I've seen some fish in the past act a completely different way if one of their tank mates has passed or isn't around for some reason. It's actually quite neat to see that.

Is it possible that they were reestablishing the tank pecking order?

If it weren't finals season I would flood this thread with empirical research, but I'm too busy writing a bajillion papers. If this thread is still relevant in a week I'll come back and throw some science around. Long story short though the article is absolutely correct.

You can reply for up to a year so go ahead

All organisms have emotions. Are a fish's emotions as evolved and complex as ours, i doubt it, but i do think they feel simple forms of joy and despair

That's a good point that I would like to focus on. We use these words to describe emotions, and attribute them to being similar to human emotions. When it comes down to it, Joy and Despair are incredibly complex emotions. I doubt that fish are capable of feeling emotions as deep as those.

I mean, we were made to be more relationally emotional, since we come from a long lineage of animals with very complex group hierarchical behaviors. But then, lots of fish have those too. I don't think we really know enough about brains, neuroscience, evolutionary psychology, or animal behavior to really say much about this stuff for sure.

+1

If we as humans weren't made to be emotional, we never would have survived as a species with our babies being nothing but bait for larger animals. That's a big difference from fish that can survive relatively unassisted from day 1 of their birth.


A lot of the time when this discussion comes up, it's mostly people hoping that their fish feel the same feelings towards their keepers.

 

[sinibotia]

A lot of the time when this discussion comes up, it's mostly people hoping that their fish feel the same feelings towards their keepers.

I think that, depending on the fish species, they may to some extent- albeit in ways that are completely foreign to us. But notice the general common thread among fish that are most often considered to be full of "personality"- cichlids, pufferfish, loaches immediately jump to mind. Cichlids- complex social behavior and parental care. Pufferfish- highly inquisitive- due to the nature of their prey and their relative lack of concern for predators. Loaches- group behavior and social hierarchy comparable to that of wolves. All of these are behaviors that we as a species also exhibit, and so I think it's possible in some ways that fish can "understand" and "feel the same way"- but only weakly, and only in the context of their own experience and evolutionary behavioral tendencies.

Again, we don't know nearly enough to really say anything for sure, but I would consider it a possibility. After all, in science it seems we constantly underestimate the complexity of the lower vertebrates. And with fish in particular- we're more closely related to frogs than many species of fish are to each other, so looking at this kind of stuff in the context of fish in general is so broad that it's practically meaningless.

 

[Brookster123]

Eat,sleep,reproduce and self preservation is questionable at best, I've seen fish do some pretty stupid things.. not saying I'm to far off that list It's been said before. I think we as humans become attached to pets and see things in their behavior we perceive as over intelligent or over sensitive. It's just because we like them so much. Reaction to a stimuli is not always an emotional response, when my rams glass surf and wag like they're happy to see me it's simply because they want food, may not even be hungry but they want food. When food is introduced feeding becomes the main focus and I am no longer relevant, hence the stoppage of the glass surfing and wagging.

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[MissGurnus]

But theres still a fair amount of intelligence in that it's self. Recognizing a non natural source of food. Some people call it conditioning but really it's learning.

 

[Brookster123]

But theres still a fair amount of intelligence in that it's self. Recognizing a non natural source of food. Some people call it conditioning but really it's learning.

It's basic survival, i don't see anything extraordinary in that, it becomes a natural food source as they depend solely on "us" to introduce food into their closed environment.

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[MissGurnus]

I never said it was extraordinary, just a level of intelligence that most people do not acknowledge.

 

[Tigerbarb12]

But it is more instinctive, so its not like they deduce, they simply become adept to seeing a large figure outside their world and they learn that food is to follow

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[MissGurnus]

That may be true but most people think fish are as intelligent as dirt. And even if they are operating solely on instinct that assumption is far from true

 

[Mebbid]

But it is more instinctive, so its not like they deduce, they simply become adept to seeing a large figure outside their world and they learn that food is to follow

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That's true, but what's really interesting is they can differentiate between one big figure standing outside their home that usually brings food and another that is a complete stranger.
This despite the fact that we wear different color clothes every day.

 

[MissGurnus]

Thats a really good point mebbid

 

[ImACoolguy]

That's true, but what's really interesting is they can differentiate between one big figure standing outside their home that usually brings food and another that is a complete stranger.

This despite the fact that we wear different color clothes every day.

This is why I believe there is more of a connection than just see someone and think food is coming. Of course I have not science to back that up but I see it in some of my fish. My dojo will ONLY rest in my hand. My brother has tried forever but he won't do it. He will also only eat from my hand, same with my ropefish. I believe it's wall of trust that is built by pet and owner even if it is just food. Same works for cats and dogs. My cat was very young when we got here and was scared to death of all of us for a few weeks. With some care and food she's lovely now.


Caleb

 

[MissGurnus]

This is why I believe there is more of a connection than just see someone and think food is coming. Of course I have not science to back that up but I see it in some of my fish. My dojo will ONLY rest in my hand. My brother has tried forever but he won't do it. He will also only eat from my hand, same with my ropefish. I believe it's wall of trust that is built by pet and owner even if it is just food. Same works for cats and dogs. My cat was very young when we got here and was scared to death of all of us for a few weeks. With some care and food she's lovely now.


Caleb

I agree with you wholeheartedly

 

[Brookster123]

That's true, but what's really interesting is they can differentiate between one big figure standing outside their home that usually brings food and another that is a complete stranger.
This despite the fact that we wear different color clothes every day.

True, but.. would it be based off vision alone? Would it maybe have something to do with how we approach the tanks?vibrations? Light steps, no spastic movements? We know what startles the fish. My cat can sidle on up to the tanks without causing a panic while if I stomp by the tanks everyone goes into hiding. I think fish rely more heavily on innate senses than vision. Especially in a shaoling species.

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[MissGurnus]

My angel fish will eagerly come and see me when I come up to the tank from hiding in his various spots, but when my mom goes up there he makes no effort to be seen and swims around like nobody's there

 

[MissGurnus]

Also I think it's important when discussing this to think about what kind if fish we're talking about. It can be like comparing apples and oranges so to speak.

 

[ImACoolguy]

I think that, depending on the fish species, they may to some extent- albeit in ways that are completely foreign to us. But notice the general common thread among fish that are most often considered to be full of "personality"- cichlids, pufferfish, loaches immediately jump to mind. Cichlids- complex social behavior and parental care. Pufferfish- highly inquisitive- due to the nature of their prey and their relative lack of concern for predators. Loaches- group behavior and social hierarchy comparable to that of wolves. All of these are behaviors that we as a species also exhibit, and so I think it's possible in some ways that fish can "understand" and "feel the same way"- but only weakly, and only in the context of their own experience and evolutionary behavioral tendencies.

Again, we don't know nearly enough to really say anything for sure, but I would consider it a possibility. After all, in science it seems we constantly underestimate the complexity of the lower vertebrates. And with fish in particular- we're more closely related to frogs than many species of fish are to each other, so looking at this kind of stuff in the context of fish in general is so broad that it's practically meaningless.

I think this hit the nail on the head. Generally when people think of personality fish they think of these: cichlids, puffers, and loaches. I think we can all agree these 3 show more interest in their owner than just a schooling fish like tetras.


Caleb

 

[Mebbid]

True, but.. would it be based off vision alone? Would it maybe have something to do with how we approach the tanks?vibrations? Light steps, no spastic movements? We know what startles the fish. My cat can sidle on up to the tanks without causing a panic while if I stomp by the tanks everyone goes into hiding. I think fish rely more heavily on innate senses than vision. Especially in a shaoling species.

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It's possible and I have no logical argument against it.

 

[Deminox]

Emotion is just your brain reacting with chemicals to various stimulus. Why would fish be any different? They have proven that fish of many species recognize people. Goldfish can be shy feeding from new people.

As for physical pain, they say that you should NOT put a goldfish or any fish in the freezer to euthanize it, as they discovered that the fish does indeed feel physical pain, unlike what they used to think.

This post brought to you by.. ALL GLORY TO THE HYPNOTOAD

 

[jetajockey]

Anthropomorphism is real, and all too common with pet owners. If our pet fish can show true complex emotion, anger, rage, envy, hatred, depression, it'd be easy enough to prove, right?

I don't necessarily think fish are dumb, but there's also a reason why a basic bottle trap works so well. It's a very simple design as shown in this photo

and most fish can't figure out how to get out of it once they go into it.