seachem stability

[Bubble_B0y]

1) where does it say that Stability uses heterotrophic bacteria?
It has never made such a claim.

2) Dr Tims, Tetra safestart , Biospira all recommend continued dosage of their products too!
(after each water change, post filter maintenance, and after medicating)
This isn't independent with just stability.
Hence, one can argue the above products are also inherently unstable.

 

[Bubble_B0y]

Anyways, we can argue all day about whether or not these products work.
On some level, they probably are effective otherwise there wouldn't be a market for it, or one could file a huge lawsuit saying the product lied - which they haven't.

The bottomline is that these products are designed to help those particular consumers that are ignorant to the science of fish-keeping. Many of the people that use these products don't know any better, or don't care about the biology and chemistry of the hobby.
I doubt many of the people that use these products visit forums or do daily research on such deep topics.

There are no laws/rules in this hobby, only recommendations -
c'mon... even hardcore fishkeepers overstock their tanks and mix unsuitable species together!

 

[jetajockey]

1) Sure it does. Anaerobes are heterotrophs, plain and simple. Autotrophic nitrifiers are strictly aerobic. Furthermore, they do make a claim to have aerobic bacteria, but they don't specify as to which species that might be. However, accepting a general fact that the naturally occuring autotrophs are strictly aerobic, they do not have a spore form, and have a limited shelf life. So any product without an expiration or use-by date on is telling.


2) Of course they all recommend continued dosage, they want your money. The main and most important difference with those three particular brands is that they claim to have live autotrophic nitrifiers (the same kind that naturally occurs in a cycled tank). If you dig deeper you'll find out the species names and all the other particulars in the biology papers, if you can stand to read them, they are rather dry.

One thing to remember is that all 3 of those brands listed were basically spawned by the same person. However he's not the only one that agrees that the 'bottle bacteria' idea failed and needed to be readdressed.

Another read that explains nitrifiers.
Nitrifying Bacteria Facts

I actually tested the Fritz- product as well but only once and I had to cut it short, so I didn't give a full review.

 

[jetajockey]

Anyways, we can argue all day about whether or not these products work.
On some level, they probably are effective otherwise there wouldn't be a market for it, or one could file a huge lawsuit saying the product lied.

The bottomline is that these products are designed to help those particular consumers that are ignorant to the science of fish-keeping. Many of the people that use these products don't know any better, or don't care about the biology and chemistry of the hobby.
I doubt many of the people that use these products visit forums or do daily research on such deep topics.

There are no laws/rules in this hobby, only recommendations -
c'mon... even hardcore fishkeepers overstock their tanks and mix unsuitable species together!

Sure we can discuss it, but this isn't a matter of 'whats your favorite color?' type discussion. There is actual data on this subject and the products involved, so having an informed opinion has some weight to it.

As far as consumers being ignorant to the science of fish-keeping, yes, many are, that's why they buy into the cycles, stresszymes, and stabilitys out there.


And no, no one can file a lawsuit against these people for selling their snake oil products. I could sell a handful of dirt all day long and claim that it has nitrifying bacteria in it, because it does. Truth be told, these heterotrophic bacteria have been used for decades, primarily to break down waste in septic systems and wastewater, etc.

It does oxidize nitrogenous waste, so it does as advertised, the problem is with *how* it does it.

 

[Aquamania]

Prime and nutrafin cycle has been helpful for my first tank, 3 weeks and the cycle was done!!!

 

[Aquamania]

That's a big assumption. How about Api Stress Zyme? That's another fail bacteria supplement put out by a trusted name, API is a huge name in aquaria. What about nutrafin/hagen Cycle?

You can't take anything that retailers say at face value, unfortunately they can say just about anything when it comes to selling their products. Look into it, check ingredient labels, and specifically with this, check the science behind the product.

Research is everything.

You say that but you dont use or believe so why would we trust more people that dont use and believe that those who get info by the manufacturer??

 

[Aquamania]

I have tested Stability myself on completely fresh setups. My results were dubious, they are posted on a different fish forum.

It's not about it working, it's about HOW it works. Heterotrophic bacteria are notorious for building a very unstable biofilter that often crashes if not kept sustained with repeat dosings. That's why it's imperative to use a bacteria supplement that contains the actual autotrophic bacteria that is naturally found in aquaria and not a unsustainable substitute.

Stability use autotroph and aerobics nitrobacter, nitrosomonas and nitrospira!! Thats what the companie says, and false publicity can put you in big trouble so with the time they are selling it without that trouble i think its the truth!! But thats not a decent proof, that i know!!

Same for cycle, i spoke with the agronom that does it and thats autotroph to!!! Base on what they certified!! Certified and no one has been able to prove its false!!

 

[Aquamania]

1) Sure it does. Anaerobes are heterotrophs, plain and simple. Autotrophic nitrifiers are strictly aerobic. Furthermore, they do make a claim to have aerobic bacteria, but they don't specify as to which species that might be. However, accepting a general fact that the naturally occuring autotrophs are strictly aerobic, they do not have a spore form, and have a limited shelf life. So any product without an expiration or use-by date on is telling.

2) Of course they all recommend continued dosage, they want your money. The main and most important difference with those three particular brands is that they claim to have live autotrophic nitrifiers (the same kind that naturally occurs in a cycled tank). If you dig deeper you'll find out the species names and all the other particulars in the biology papers, if you can stand to read them, they are rather dry.

One thing to remember is that all 3 of those brands listed were basically spawned by the same person. However he's not the only one that agrees that the 'bottle bacteria' idea failed and needed to be readdressed.

Another read that explains nitrifiers.
Nitrifying Bacteria Facts

I actually tested the Fritz- product as well but only once and I had to cut it short, so I didn't give a full review.

I have a bottle here and they dont speak about hererotroph sorry!

 

[MonsterfishGuy]

A thread i like!!!
Hi Eco!!
Hi jetajockey!!

Just take that, every companie in the past 30 years who does false pub on their product has been in justice and paid a lot for that mistake!!

Cycle nutrafin sell those autotroph bacteria since 30 years and no problem!

So you can believe or not, if that would have been heterotroph like waste control nutrafin, they would have been in trouble for it!!

Plus i use it and it does cycle a tank in 3 weeks with fish and no ammo over 1,5ppm without pwc!!!

Dont try it with 5 fish in 5 gal because for sure it cannot go that fast!!

But try it seriously before telling they put heterotroph as hagen sells the heterotroph in waste control but in cycle its autotroph!! And both product does not the same effect at all so its not the same!!

Stability work as well as cycle!!

Bring more that a paper writen by a believer of the dark side!!! Because we have a much paper that says it works!!!

That debate will never end but the product are working, thats the only important matter!!

 

[Aquamania]

Maybe those who think its heterotroph should sue those companies as they sell it as autotroph cycling bacteria!!

You couls make 100k$!!! It means a big pond and lots of free aquarium!!!!

 

[Sparky74]

Just for the sake of keeping things accurate. The label on the Stability bottle does not say you NEED to add between water changes. It says "for optimum biofilter performance" add during water changes or once a month.


While on the subject of bacteria in a bottle...

I found another product:

- Microbe-Lift Special Blend(stinks worse than Prime lol)

- Microbe-Lift Nite-out II

Provides necessary nitrifying bacteria (Nitrosomonas sp., Nitrobacter sp., Nitrospira sp.) required for the biological nitrification process and assures the continued removal of toxic ammonia and nitrite!

Microbe-Lift.com :: Immediate Water Cycling Kit

It's is a 2 step cycle product.

I have used their Herbtana product with good results. Safe for reef/inverts as well.

 

[brittanykluss]

So.... basically tell me if I'm wrong because I have no idea, say you use stability like your suppose to wouldn't you eventually build up the "right natural" kind of bacterias anyway?

 

[Helloelliee]

So.... basically tell me if I'm wrong because I have no idea, say you use stability like your suppose to wouldn't you eventually build up the "right natural" kind of bacterias anyway?

That's what I've been wondering this whole time! Eventually during this process your tank has to start its own bacteria at some point. There's a lot of people who use it and it works. It does not say you have to continue to use it they just "suggest you use it when changing water" which is how they make more money off of you. I'm on day 5 and everything is reading 0 and my ph is at 7.4. I'll repost on here if my tank "crashes". Honestly though I think there are other factors to be taken into consideration. A lot of people don't like to do PWC regularly or test their water and they overfeed their fish.

 

[eco23]

The problem with these products is that they can give the appearance of a cycled tank. So after a short time of using them, people say "Great! My tank is cycled! Stability works!", and they believe this because the tank is reading 0 ammo, 0 no2 and some degree of no3...so everything looks peachy.

Then sometime later you walk into the room, notice fish gasping at the surface or even dead ones. You break out the test kit and see ammonia and no2 spikes like the tank had never been cycled.

The issue here without going too deeply into the science (which I'm gonna have to start copying and pasting on all these threads on this topic) are because of the way heterotrophic bacteria function. Ammonia and nitrIte are not their preferred food source. They'd rather eat organics and actually PRODUCE ammonia instead of consuming it. So when heterotrophs are added to a new tank, there is a lack of organics and these "substitute" bacteria perform nitrification simply because ammonia and nitrItes are readily available. After a period the heterotrophs tend to begin dying off and / or changing their food source. When this happens, they stop nitrification and that's what people consider a "crash".

Now, there is some debate on whether the heterotrophs actually compete with the true nitrifyiers for everything from food sources to surface area and cause a lack of development (I've seen info on both sides). It stands to reason that when another type of bacteria is consuming the toxins at a tremendous pace...there will be a limited food source and the autotrophs will not develop as efficiently and as large of a colony as they would otherwise. The other issue is that heterotrophs colonize drastically faster that autotrophs (it's an astronomically different proportion).

As for continued usage, I agree part of it is simply about $. However, I'd believe that if within the first few months of setting up the tank, the sooner you stop using these products, the more likely you are to experience a crash. These companies know that heterotrophs will not continue to be efficient, they know they will change functions, and they know are not as sustainable as the true nitrifying bacteria found in normal aquaria.

There really is no speculation here. If you browse the forum for a couple days...you're bound to see a thread about someone who cycled their tank, and all of a sudden they're seeing huge spikes in ammo (there's was one earlier today I believe). The first question we ask is...did you use a cycling product? I'd say in 85% of these cases the answer is yes. Not all brands potentially cause this...but I'd wager that saying most of them would be an accurate description...Stability is on that list.

 

[Bubble_B0y]

^^^
AGAIN, your post is full of assumptions and "IF's"
There is no evidence that says these products will lead to a crash.
If anything, these products are developed to do the complete opposite and PREVENT a crash!

If you browse the forum for a couple days...you're bound to see a thread about someone who cycled their tank, and all of a sudden they're seeing huge spikes in ammo (there's was one earlier today I believe). The first question we ask is...did you use a cycling product? I'd say in 85% of these cases the answer is yes. .

I think the bigger question should be,
is your tank overstocked? do you overfeed? do you perform weekly water changes and maintenance?
I would argue YES, to all of these questions.

 

[eco23]

^^^
AGAIN, your post is full of assumptions and "IF's"
There is no evidence that says these products will lead to a crash.
If anything, these products are developed to do the complete opposite and PREVENT a crash!

I'm not sure if you simply haven't researched these products...or if you're just supporting on them on blind faith or limited experience.

The science is there. There are no assumptions unless you're viewing scientific data and research on different types of bacteria as "assumptions".

Do a bit of looking around and try to find any evidence that the heterotrophs contained in these products develop a stable bio-filter. I think you're going to have a hard time doing that unless it is on said manufacturers website.

http://www.bioconlabs.com/autoheterobac.html

http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Nitrogen_Cycle.html#products (this one gives an accurate explanation...then for some odd reason supports Stability which was a new product likely unresearched by them at the time)

http://www.bioconlabs.com/nitribactfacts.html

http://www.oscarfish.com/article-home/water/71-autotrophic-bacteria-manifesto.html

http://www.oscarfish.com/article-home/water/72-heterotrophic-bacteria.html

 

[Bubble_B0y]

I've been keeping fish for over 10 years and i'm aware of the science!

The science is there. There are no assumptions unless you're viewing scientific data and research on different types of bacteria as "assumptions".

There is also a science behind these products.
It makes no sense that a reputable company like seachem, API, hagen would spend millions of dollars and years of research designing products that are counterproductive!

 

[Bubble_B0y]

I was a skeptic when it came to using these 'bacteria in a bottle' products.
But I gave it a chance.
There is no harm in using such products - only to your pocket. So you have nothing to lose.

 

[eco23]

I've been keeping fish for over 10 years and i'm aware of the science!

There is also a science behind these products.
It makes no sense that a reputable company like seachem, API, hagen would spend millions of dollars and years of research designing products that are counterproductive!

If you truly understand the science...I have no idea why you vouch for the product simply because there is a respectable name printed on the bottle. I honestly would be interested to read any information you have showing heterotrophs establish a stable bio-filter of true nitrifying bacteria (I'm not being condescending...I'd really like to see it if you've got it). I'm not sure how you view selling a product which creates massive revenue (and repeat purchases) as counterproductive. Do you believe that every product developed by Hagen, API and Seachem should be considered effective? Would you advise members to purchase API test strips? Stress-Zyme? How about the wide range of chemicals they produce to change your water chemistry, which virtually all experienced fish-keepers would advise is unnecessary?

 

[eco23]

Just another point I want to make on the subject...that's the rush to market that comes with this territory. You see it with everything from music to services to websites. When something is popular and making $...other companies try to capitalize on the success by jumping into the same category. I'm sure Seachem has plenty of respected techs with great knowledge...but that doesn't mean the investors aren't jumping down their throats pushing them to get something onto the shelves ASAP.

Tetra for example, while not very respected by experienced hobbyists, obviously has huge capital behind them. They had made tons of junk cycling products for years that had a virtually nil success rate. I'm sure Tetra could hire all the scientists they wanted...but still nothing groundbreaking was released...only things meant to fill shelves and make $. Now Tetra bought the rights to Bio-Spira and call it SafeStart. I think that's pretty good evidence that no matter who you have working for you..thats no guarantee a truly successful product will be developed in-house.

The other issue with this is product viability. It's fact that autotrophic bacteria are not sustainable long term sitting on a shelf. The products which have good track records will readily admit the product has to be handled and stored properly to be fully viable. That's another thing that's going to put a serious dampening on your bottom line if you're producing a product which has a short shelf life. Companies like Seachem are expected to have their products readily available and on shelves all over the world....hence why a long shelf life (at whatever cost) is an important factor in development...as opposed to companies like Dr. Tim's O & O which is normally purchased directly from the company and sent to your home.