My First Test Results

[AndyN]

Yea, but my foot don't taste good...needs more salt or something. PP

Ha haa, don't be hard on yourself

 

[PremativePeat]

Actually I was considering looking up foot recipes to see if I could improve the taste as it seems to happen too often so it's either quit talking (posting) or improve the taste. PP

 

[blert]

...
So what should I be looking for in my test tomorrow if things are moving forward!?

A lowering of ammonia would be a good start.
An increase in nitrate would mean you are well on your way.

For future reference...
Test your source (tap?) water for: ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and pH.

To test your source's pH leave a cup out for 24 hours. If you have a spare air pump drop a line in it, if not then give it a good stir every so often. Test it after 24 hours and that will be the true pH of your source water.

 

[librarygirl]

How long have nitrites been high? The nitrite phase is the longest, which takes about 3 weeks on average. As long as ammonia is converting to 0 or close-to every 24 hours and nitrate is rising, things are good. Your PH is fine. If nitrites are high (5+) for a week or more you can do a large water change(s) to get them to a readable level on the chart; don't be surprised if they increase again fast, that's normal. If PH drops suddenly to below 7 or ammonia stops converting then try another large water change. Other than that just keep dosing every 24 hours and wait for nitrite to drop to 0.

 

[PremativePeat]

AndyN, first a reference source and best I have found on the internet source IMO:Ammonia ---- Or
"Water Management For The Neglectful Aquarist"By Dick Van Hyfte.
You have taken the most important part of the control and ammonia management where patients are just as important as the steps. In the quest to convert ammonia to nitrogen, time should be titled “it takes as long as it takes,” but you can use that time wisely by making the study of ammonia to both understand what this product is, how it comes about, what water conditions it favors, and how to manage a careless moment should it occur.
PH plays an enormous factor in testing ammonia; consider Ammonia (NH3) it is a weak base (so can raise an acid above ph 7), while ammonium is an ion with a positive formula (NH4+) and can react with an acid since itself is mildly acidic hence lower ph further. Ammonium itself is not found on its own but accompanied by the negative ion Ammonium Nitrate, NH4NO3.
Note: Ammonium itself not considered as harmful as Ammonia, though in high numbers it is and should be removed if possible to reduce the change of a PH shift where the ammonium nitrate is immediately converted into ammonia with just the rise above neutral ph which is 7. (ref: answers.com)

Because ammonium is found in large quantities in waters of below 7 ph or less., and because these waters are often associated with low hardness (soft water) with little buffering can cause a sudden ph shift with a slight nudge from any or a slight rise in temperature, increase in circulated air, or simply a decrease in CO2. Any or all of these factors can influence a change in ph and so a change in ammonia level readings.
One PH measured point can yield enormous amount of ammonia (NH3) into the water column and further raise the PH in a domino effect to produce an ammonia bloom where plants are among the tools used to control ammonia nitrate, by consuming ammonia, and release the nitrate as a gas out.
It is fair to say we the aquarists do a delicate balance act with PH, Air, Temperature, and CO2 just to control ammonia, yet the influence on any one of these factors does have big change on ammonia if our PH is or around 7 and can swing easily with just a nudge.
For these reasons I favor having controlled water storage (my supply is 35 gal. leg tank) that is both conditioned to breaks the Chloramine bond and removes chlorine immediately this to protect the nurtured cycled bacteria in my tank, and to remove the ammonia I must find a product that will not mess up ammonia testing (some products remove ammonia but void ammonia testing and may influence ph test chemicals) That for me is still a research in progress.
Prime is a good candidate, but it binds the ammonia for 24 hrs. and does not state what happens to the ammonia.
References: Ammonia ---- Or
"Water Management For The Neglectful Aquarist"By Dick Van Hyfte. google Dick Van Hyfte ammonia.
(ref: answers.com) http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_difference_between_ammonia_and_ammonium Ammonia (NH3), it is a weak base. Ammonium is an ion with the formula NH4+. The ammonium ion is formed when ammonia reacts with an acid and is itself mildly acidic, so it can lower ph because it is positively charged, and is not found on its own but accompanied by a negative ion such as in ammonium nitrate, NH4NO3.
There are other references on the Internet, but IMO these cover the subject well, and I hope you find this information helpful. PP

 

[AndyN]

AndyN, first a reference source and best I have found on the internet source IMO:Ammonia ---- Or
"Water Management For The Neglectful Aquarist"By Dick Van Hyfte.
You have taken the most important part of the control and ammonia management where patients are just as important as the steps. In the quest to convert ammonia to nitrogen, time should be titled “it takes as long as it takes,” but you can use that time wisely by making the study of ammonia to both understand what this product is, how it comes about, what water conditions it favors, and how to manage a careless moment should it occur.
PH plays an enormous factor in testing ammonia; consider Ammonia (NH3) it is a weak base (so can raise an acid above ph 7), while ammonium is an ion with a positive formula (NH4+) and can react with an acid since itself is mildly acidic hence lower ph further. Ammonium itself is not found on its own but accompanied by the negative ion Ammonium Nitrate, NH4NO3.
Note: Ammonium itself not considered as harmful as Ammonia, though in high numbers it is and should be removed if possible to reduce the change of a PH shift where the ammonium nitrate is immediately converted into ammonia with just the rise above neutral ph which is 7. (ref: answers.com)

Because ammonium is found in large quantities in waters of below 7 ph or less., and because these waters are often associated with low hardness (soft water) with little buffering can cause a sudden ph shift with a slight nudge from any or a slight rise in temperature, increase in circulated air, or simply a decrease in CO2. Any or all of these factors can influence a change in ph and so a change in ammonia level readings.
One PH measured point can yield enormous amount of ammonia (NH3) into the water column and further raise the PH in a domino effect to produce an ammonia bloom where plants are among the tools used to control ammonia nitrate, by consuming ammonia, and release the nitrate as a gas out.
It is fair to say we the aquarists do a delicate balance act with PH, Air, Temperature, and CO2 just to control ammonia, yet the influence on any one of these factors does have big change on ammonia if our PH is or around 7 and can swing easily with just a nudge.
For these reasons I favor having controlled water storage (my supply is 35 gal. leg tank) that is both conditioned to breaks the Chloramine bond and removes chlorine immediately this to protect the nurtured cycled bacteria in my tank, and to remove the ammonia I must find a product that will not mess up ammonia testing (some products remove ammonia but void ammonia testing and may influence ph test chemicals) That for me is still a research in progress.
Prime is a good candidate, but it binds the ammonia for 24 hrs. and does not state what happens to the ammonia.
References: Ammonia ---- Or
"Water Management For The Neglectful Aquarist"By Dick Van Hyfte. google Dick Van Hyfte ammonia.
(ref: answers.com) http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_difference_between_ammonia_and_ammonium Ammonia (NH3), it is a weak base. Ammonium is an ion with the formula NH4+. The ammonium ion is formed when ammonia reacts with an acid and is itself mildly acidic, so it can lower ph because it is positively charged, and is not found on its own but accompanied by a negative ion such as in ammonium nitrate, NH4NO3.
There are other references on the Internet, but IMO these cover the subject well, and I hope you find this information helpful. PP

Very helpful PP - thanks for taking the time to find it!

 

[PremativePeat]

Your welcome...enjoy

 

[PremativePeat]

Oh I did forget to mention with fishless cycle you can accelerate it mildly by keeping the tank temperature between 85 ~ 87 degrees F. PP

 

[AndyN]

Oh I did forget to mention with fishless cycle you can accelerate it mildly by keeping the tank temperature between 85 ~ 87 degrees F. PP

The temp has been cranked up! More test results to follow later )

(Added some cycled filter media last night and dosed up to 4ppm - hopefully we will be rocking and rolling tonight)

 

[PremativePeat]

AndyN, where did you find you fishless cycle information, for I would like to read it over as you use a 4ppm level yet most I have read stay at 5ppm. Nit pic perhaps but I'm that way, so can you give me a reference source please. Kind regards PP

 

[AndyN]

AndyN, where did you find you fishless cycle information, for I would like to read it over as you use a 4ppm level yet most I have read stay at 5ppm. Nit pic perhaps but I'm that way, so can you give me a reference source please. Kind regards PP

Hi PP from this very site. It's titled The (almost) complete guide and FAQ to fishless cycling. Written by Eric Ogilvie. Although most resources I have read on here seem to quote a 4ppm level.

I can only assume that 4ppm is suggested to prevent numpties like me over doing the ammonia! You know us newbies - our eagerness can often be our downfall

 

[PremativePeat]

don't get me wrong, this is not a concern issue, and the only reason I ask about the 4ppm with ammonia and bacterial growth...too much ammonia will actually slow the growth, as in shock or stop the activity, while not enough also slows the growth as in the amount of bacteria, but at a steady pace. Important is the development of a larger than expected load when you put your fish in...Put another way if I had another big tank...I would first determine or create an idea of how many, and of what fish I want in the tank. I would then determine if this load is pushing the limits of my tank (just for personal information) and finally I would really push for a high end level of bacteria count towards that goal. A side note about words like high end...If my bio load for the tank is not excessive I would strive for a level around 3ppm balance, but if I were at the limits of my tank bio load I would either rethink my count, or go for I higher level of 4-5ppm or even higher if I don't stall the cycle with heavy dose of ammonia. We really do walk a thin line at times, but its fun if you know what I mean. PP

 

[AndyN]

Strange results from tonight.....

Dosed up to 4ppm ammonia last night

Ph - 8.0
Ammonia - 2.0ppm
Nitrite - over 5.0ppm
Nitrate - 0ppm

Not sure what this is telling me and not sure why my nitrates have disappeared!?

 

[AndyN]

Been doing some research and from what I can gather - all is normal.

I think my first tests were a false start (with regard the nitrate reading).

It seems I'm cycling - just slower than I thought. I have dosed the ammonia back up to 4ppm and will test again tomorrow.

 

[librarygirl]

What test kit are you using? If you're using the API liquid kit, make sure you shake and bang both nitrate bottles for 30 seconds (bang the bottom on a hard surface a few times) and then vigorously shake the tube for 60 seconds. Also make sure you add the drops in the right order (bottle #1 then bottle #2); the test can be finicky if not done the right way. Still, I wouldn't worry too much. Ammonia is dropping some and you have nitrite, so that's good!

 

[AndyN]

What test kit are you using? If you're using the API liquid kit, make sure you shake and bang both nitrate bottles for 30 seconds (bang the bottom on a hard surface a few times) and then vigorously shake the tube for 60 seconds. Also make sure you add the drops in the right order (bottle #1 then bottle #2); the test can be finicky if not done the right way. Still, I wouldn't worry too much. Ammonia is dropping some and you have nitrite, so that's good!

Thanks librarygirl - I am using the API Kit so will make sure everything is followed closely today

 

[PremativePeat]

AndyN, any sudden increase of Ammonia does cause a decline in Nitrates, unless they have the numbers to neutralize the surge. Nitrites will suddenly bloom, and your test indicates you are still cycling, and the readings are normal and not a mistake...remember you must build a strong Nitrate to neutralize nitrite which will drop ammonia to zero...and finally you will drop nitrite to zero. When you make them hit zero. You do a water change, and ammoniate one more time to see what happens...if your nitrate is strong...the ammonia will never get off the ground, and nitrite may raise ever so slight then crash, and nitrates will rise. If the numbers of nitrate is very high (above 40PPM) do another water change...and don't add any fish till that number is around 20ppm max... At that point your tank is cycled and you can add in preferred numbers fully stocked...And I covered the fully stocked concept. I don't think that will happen for awhile yet...but that is the time thingy...it takes as long as it takes. Though you are doing well. PP

 

[PremativePeat]

librarygirl, that is sound advise and proper use of the test method... PP

 

[blert]

AndyN, any sudden increase of Ammonia does cause a decline in Nitrates, unless they have the numbers to neutralize the surge. Nitrites will suddenly bloom, and your test indicates you are still cycling, and the readings are normal and not a mistake...remember you must build a strong Nitrate to neutralize nitrite which will drop ammonia to zero...and finally you will drop nitrite to zero. When you make them hit zero. You do a water change, and ammoniate one more time to see what happens...if your nitrate is strong...the ammonia will never get off the ground, and nitrite may raise ever so slight then crash, and nitrates will rise. If the numbers of nitrate is very high (above 40PPM) do another water change...and don't add any fish till that number is around 20ppm max... At that point your tank is cycled and you can add in preferred numbers fully stocked...And I covered the fully stocked concept. I don't think that will happen for awhile yet...but that is the time thingy...it takes as long as it takes. Though you are doing well. PP

Really not understanding what you are saying here. Nitrate does not neutralize nitrite or ammonia. It is the end result (in our freshwater tanks anyway) of the nitrogen cycle... Ammonia is converted to nitrite, nitrite to nitrate, and then you need some type of export (PWCs, heavy planting, algae scrubber, de-nitrator, etc) to remove the nitrate.

 

[PremativePeat]

Really not understanding what you are saying here. Nitrate does not neutralize nitrite or ammonia. It is the end result (in our freshwater tanks anyway) of the nitrogen cycle... Ammonia is converted to nitrite, nitrite to nitrate, and then you need some type of export (PWCs, heavy planting, algae scrubber, de-nitrator, etc) to remove the nitrate.

If I didn't make it clear I'm sorry but here is what it say's: Ammonia is oxydized (neutralized) by Nitrites whose numbers can get off the scale. Over time of the cycle Nitrates will oxydize (neutralize) the Nitrites, and even bring their numbers down over time. And we do control the Nitrate bacteria (not as harmful as the other two) with PWC that a schedule handles most of the time, but still occational chks should be made for the increased nitrates as that count most often goes up first if ammonia is on the increase.
AndyN parameters are not out of spec for this part of the cycle as it would be expected for the Nitrates to stall since their count strength is not up to power to oxydize the nitrites. And it is the nitrites that will now grow to a big count, and nitrates will very soon start to rise in response. Hope this is made more understandable. PP