sixtyfou
Aquarium Advice Freak
J, I love how emotional you are getting, but you haven't said a thing of substance.
Article on stocking
- Thread starter sixtyfou
- Start date
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If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
Masha
Aquarium Advice FINatic
I'm not sure why anyone should answer you. Anyone who doesn't agree with you is by definition buthurt and abnormal. What is the purpose of the conversation?
I'm genuinely interested to find out your reasons for your opinions, but you dont give any. I don't find that particularly convincing. Would you?
Old Scales
Aquarium Advice Addict
LOL I'm enjoying the debate guys. Be nice though as we don't want anybody getting censored. I'll just read/listen in and be a devil's advocate. Just remember how unique everyone's situation is when it comes to aquariums.
sixtyfou
Aquarium Advice Freak
I've had tanks with some basics plants that were correctly stocked and the chem levels didn't get high in 7 days. I'll configure one and post the data. I made an off hand comment that established tanks don't need to be changed weekly. You'd think said something about your momma from the responses.
Here's a short clip off another thread about WC's, how much, how often, etc., and AquaChem who this is quoted from gave a very brief reason of testing and buildup. AQ has a chemistry degree and could shed light on WC's and water chemistry....
"How confident are you that nitrogenous waste, phosphates, and GH / KH are the only thing that builds up? Don't make the mistake of confusing undetectable/unmeasureable with not there.
Fish don't just excrete ammonia. They excrete many, many organic molecules (metabolites, proteins, etc) that could potentially be toxic. These compounds could have a number of potentially hazardous effects on a tank, such as (and completely made up on the spot): noxious to fish gills, bioaccumulation, or fueling dangerous (or unsightly) heterotrophic bacteria or algae species like cyanobacteria."
IMO there are many different things that can and does build up in our closed aquarium system. Most we can't measure and many we don't even know is in the water building up unless we are chemists. My reasoning is that if I change out 50% of my water weekly I never have to worry about any type of buildup of any type of toxins. My tanks run at 10ppm weekly, even my 220g, but I still change that amount of water. Over the many years I've done this I've never seen my stock or plants stress or suffer from doing this. In fact many species in my tanks spawn regularly and often the morning after a large WC.
This thread has gotten way off track.
"How confident are you that nitrogenous waste, phosphates, and GH / KH are the only thing that builds up? Don't make the mistake of confusing undetectable/unmeasureable with not there.
Fish don't just excrete ammonia. They excrete many, many organic molecules (metabolites, proteins, etc) that could potentially be toxic. These compounds could have a number of potentially hazardous effects on a tank, such as (and completely made up on the spot): noxious to fish gills, bioaccumulation, or fueling dangerous (or unsightly) heterotrophic bacteria or algae species like cyanobacteria."
IMO there are many different things that can and does build up in our closed aquarium system. Most we can't measure and many we don't even know is in the water building up unless we are chemists. My reasoning is that if I change out 50% of my water weekly I never have to worry about any type of buildup of any type of toxins. My tanks run at 10ppm weekly, even my 220g, but I still change that amount of water. Over the many years I've done this I've never seen my stock or plants stress or suffer from doing this. In fact many species in my tanks spawn regularly and often the morning after a large WC.
This thread has gotten way off track.
Scottyhorse
Aquarium Advice Addict
I would just like to add something.
sixtyfou: you say that NO tank, if properly stocked, etc needs a weekly water change. Most people, I would assume, have differing opinions on what is a proper stock. For example, some people are fine with keeping a betta in a 1g or smaller tank. They think that's proper stocking. Then there's the other aquarists who think 1 singe betta in a 5.5 gallon aquarium is the minimum and that is proper. Both have their reasons, and both think they're right.
No we come to the water change debate. In my opinion, it is very similar to the betta tank size debate. One side thinks water changes must be done once a week, the other side thinks its absurd if water isi changed once a week. I believe it all comes down to personal preference, opinions, and what one thinks 'cold hard evidence' is, and the other does not.
I think this is how it is in almost every aspect if this hobby (fish-in VS fish less cycling for example) and probably most other hobbies as well. Like the Ford VS Chevy debate.
While it is good to voice opinions, I think we have gone a little too far on this thread. It is good to know you are all passionate about this hobby, but you don't need to shove your opinions down others' throats, either. Sometimes you need to know when to stop.
Personally, I change water once a week. My reasons are: to some, I stock on the heavier side, some if my fish are sensitive to the chemicals that build up in the water, and my fish seem to be more active and colorful after the water changes, even though my ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate levels are all in check. Plus, I enjoy it
I hope this gives a little insight to you guys, and maybe calm things down a bit...
- Sydney, age 14
sixtyfou: you say that NO tank, if properly stocked, etc needs a weekly water change. Most people, I would assume, have differing opinions on what is a proper stock. For example, some people are fine with keeping a betta in a 1g or smaller tank. They think that's proper stocking. Then there's the other aquarists who think 1 singe betta in a 5.5 gallon aquarium is the minimum and that is proper. Both have their reasons, and both think they're right.
No we come to the water change debate. In my opinion, it is very similar to the betta tank size debate. One side thinks water changes must be done once a week, the other side thinks its absurd if water isi changed once a week. I believe it all comes down to personal preference, opinions, and what one thinks 'cold hard evidence' is, and the other does not.
I think this is how it is in almost every aspect if this hobby (fish-in VS fish less cycling for example) and probably most other hobbies as well. Like the Ford VS Chevy debate.
While it is good to voice opinions, I think we have gone a little too far on this thread. It is good to know you are all passionate about this hobby, but you don't need to shove your opinions down others' throats, either. Sometimes you need to know when to stop.
Personally, I change water once a week. My reasons are: to some, I stock on the heavier side, some if my fish are sensitive to the chemicals that build up in the water, and my fish seem to be more active and colorful after the water changes, even though my ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate levels are all in check. Plus, I enjoy it
I hope this gives a little insight to you guys, and maybe calm things down a bit...
- Sydney, age 14
Nimo
Aquarium Advice FINatic
I would just like to add something.
sixtyfou: you say that NO tank, if properly stocked, etc needs a weekly water change. Most people, I would assume, have differing opinions on what is a proper stock. For example, some people are fine with keeping a betta in a 1g or smaller tank. They think that's proper stocking. Then there's the other aquarists who think 1 singe betta in a 5.5 gallon aquarium is the minimum and that is proper. Both have their reasons, and both think they're right.
No we come to the water change debate. In my opinion, it is very similar to the betta tank size debate. One side thinks water changes must be done once a week, the other side thinks its absurd if water isi changed once a week. I believe it all comes down to personal preference, opinions, and what one thinks 'cold hard evidence' is, and the other does not.
I think this is how it is in almost every aspect if this hobby (fish-in VS fish less cycling for example) and probably most other hobbies as well. Like the Ford VS Chevy debate.
While it is good to voice opinions, I think we have gone a little too far on this thread. It is good to know you are all passionate about this hobby, but you don't need to shove your opinions down others' throats, either. Sometimes you need to know when to stop.
Personally, I change water once a week. My reasons are: to some, I stock on the heavier side, some if my fish are sensitive to the chemicals that build up in the water, and my fish seem to be more active and colorful after the water changes, even though my ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate levels are all in check. Plus, I enjoy it
I hope this gives a little insight to you guys, and maybe calm things down a bit...
- Sydney, age 14
Well spoken young lady. Not the wisdom of 14 but far beyond your years.
Scottyhorse
Aquarium Advice Addict
Andy Sager
Aquarium Advice Addict
Well, as long as this thread has gotten sooo off course, let me just say, "MY fish can beat up your fish " lol
Try to be civil here. You can have your fun but don't cross any lines, please. Fish keeping has been around way longer than any of us have. Long before test kits and bowls and glass aquariums. The only tried and true way of keeping fish correctly is not having them die by what you do. I just laid out some info that has proven effective for me for over 40 years of fish keeping. It's as effective for me today as it was when I started back in the 1960s keeping fish. What you want to take from it is up to you.
" lol Try to be civil here. You can have your fun but don't cross any lines, please. Fish keeping has been around way longer than any of us have. Long before test kits and bowls and glass aquariums. The only tried and true way of keeping fish correctly is not having them die by what you do. I just laid out some info that has proven effective for me for over 40 years of fish keeping. It's as effective for me today as it was when I started back in the 1960s keeping fish. What you want to take from it is up to you.
Something I thought interesting was the ugf was -20% and internal filter was 0%. That seemed harsh to me but I assume relates to ease of maintaining? To me it says an ugf should be pulled out since it has a negative impact - I know they aren't great but are they that bad?
Andy Sager
Aquarium Advice Addict
The biggest downside to UG filters is that they keep the detritus in the tank. This build up under the plate is a huge source of nitrate build up. Years ago, people tried to solve this problem by using power heads to blow the water down under the plate UP through the gravel (instead of down through the gravel) so that a HOB or canister or wet dry filter could remove it to a removable product to get it out of the water once and for all. The problem then came that it was a major expense that really wasn't necessary once the invention of the wet/ dry filter came to being and tanks were being used with no gravel or sand ( primarily saltwater tanks). When used in freshwater tanks, it was a hassle to get under the plate when doing water changes and we always recommended water be taken through the piping down under the filter plate to get whatever "mulm" you could out of the tank. Since this was not an easy task, that system became obsolete. Just part of the evolution of filters.
The biggest downside to UG filters is that they keep the detritus in the tank. This build up under the plate is a huge source of nitrate build up. Years ago, people tried to solve this problem by using power heads to blow the water down under the plate UP through the gravel (instead of down through the gravel) so that a HOB or canister or wet dry filter could remove it to a removable product to get it out of the water once and for all. The problem then came that it was a major expense that really wasn't necessary once the invention of the wet/ dry filter came to being and tanks were being used with no gravel or sand ( primarily saltwater tanks). When used in freshwater tanks, it was a hassle to get under the plate when doing water changes and we always recommended water be taken through the piping down under the filter plate to get whatever "mulm" you could out of the tank. Since this was not an easy task, that system became obsolete. Just part of the evolution of filters.
Hmm, I see your point. However don't all filters really suffer from this (hence the term nitrate factory for canisters)?. I had ugf's 20 years ago and would never go back to them and I'm assuming each filter type would be well maintained. I guess what I'm asking is if a tank had one would you pull it out ASAP?
Andy Sager
Aquarium Advice Addict
Knowing what I know now, I would get some small diameter hose and siphon water out from under the plate(s) THEN I'd remove the plates. This way, you get out most of the "gunk" to reduce the work once you remove the plate.
As for all filters being a nitrate factory, not really. Since the goal is to do regular maintainence on your filters, the source of production should be being reduced with every material change. Nitrifying bacteria live in more places than just the filter. ( Anywhere there is good water flow.) They are just about everywhere except free swimming in the water. This is why you don't want to clean 100% of your gravel when you do gravel cleaning so that you don't do too much damage to the BB bed. Keep in mind that the BB bed is a living growing and ever changing lifeforce. As the need for more bacteria arises, they reproduce more to accomedate. Remove half the bioload and half the BB will also die off from starvation. ( That's a loose example for simplification
)With the wet/ dry filter, there were (are?) matrixes that will actually change the nitrates into a gas that would leave the water and sections of the filter were designed for this action. This was being done using anerobic bacteria which uses lack of oxygen to live. Thus the "refugium" was born. LOL ( I was using this principle back in the 1970s and everybody told me I was crazy. Look who's laughing now
.)Hope this explains things
Knowing what I know now, I would get some small diameter hose and siphon water out from under the plate(s) THEN I'd remove the plates. This way, you get out most of the "gunk" to reduce the work once you remove the plate.
As for all filters being a nitrate factory, not really. Since the goal is to do regular maintainence on your filters, the source of production should be being reduced with every material change. Nitrifying bacteria live in more places than just the filter. ( Anywhere there is good water flow.) They are just about everywhere except free swimming in the water. This is why you don't want to clean 100% of your gravel when you do gravel cleaning so that you don't do too much damage to the BB bed. Keep in mind that the BB bed is a living growing and ever changing lifeforce. As the need for more bacteria arises, they reproduce more to accomedate. Remove half the bioload and half the BB will also die off from starvation. ( That's a loose example for simplification
With the wet/ dry filter, there were (are?) matrixes that will actually change the nitrates into a gas that would leave the water and sections of the filter were designed for this action. This was being done using anerobic bacteria which uses lack of oxygen to live. Thus the "refugium" was born. LOL ( I was using this principle back in the 1970s and everybody told me I was crazy. Look who's laughing now
Hope this explains things
Many thanks, yes - appreciate the explanation.
Masha
Aquarium Advice FINatic
Andy- I'm interested in your remarks about gravel cleaning.
As far as I can tell, the flow of water through gravel when I'm vacuuming the gravel with my syphon is quite similar to the flow of water through filter media.
Why would that remove bb film from gravel, if it doesn't remove it from filter media?
As far as I can tell, the flow of water through gravel when I'm vacuuming the gravel with my syphon is quite similar to the flow of water through filter media.
Why would that remove bb film from gravel, if it doesn't remove it from filter media?
J.Mcpeak
Aquarium Advice Addict
My adult guise once more!
I understand that most of the BB live in the sintered glass or ceramic element of the filter. This is why smaller internals aren't overly effective as they have no bio stage. What I do to correct it, cut a piece of sponge away and insert a piece, I use Rena stars as they give a litre per star rating on the box.
Most people say "nitrate trap" this is true of any poorly maintained filter or system. Some people consider the filter should do everything removing need for human intervention. Problems are inevitable for this mindset. The beneficial bacteria in the filter is in my mind protected by the filter wool as it stops the pores of the ceramic/sintered glass/modern material being blocked. If you lay the media in the filter out in the right order you will have no problems providing the wool is changed out on a regular(suited to the system) interval.
When I gravel vac I Hoover the entire area so it is done, this is also often completed at the time interval where the filter is broken down for a clean.
I have had no problems, I've done it the same way for ever.
The fastest way to kill the bacteria is prolonged exposure to air. Drying out. Keep it submersed where possible, I also understand (read it somewhere) it will start dying after around 45 minutes without a flow of oxygenated water.
I understand the only way to have an efficient bacteria bed in a system is by using a deep substrate of 10cm/4"+ or by using a plenum chamber DSB which employs a similar depth of sand.
My water change is based on what is necessary to achieve a clean substrate and filter material, sometimes it's large, other times it is of less volume
I apologise unreservedly for misbehaving, I stand by my actions but perhaps they were not for the public domain.
I'm glad scottyhorse cantered in!
Forgive my use of the word child as obviously you are more mature than me!
It took a child to make men stop acting like children! That's all I'm saying about that!
I understand that most of the BB live in the sintered glass or ceramic element of the filter. This is why smaller internals aren't overly effective as they have no bio stage. What I do to correct it, cut a piece of sponge away and insert a piece, I use Rena stars as they give a litre per star rating on the box.
Most people say "nitrate trap" this is true of any poorly maintained filter or system. Some people consider the filter should do everything removing need for human intervention. Problems are inevitable for this mindset. The beneficial bacteria in the filter is in my mind protected by the filter wool as it stops the pores of the ceramic/sintered glass/modern material being blocked. If you lay the media in the filter out in the right order you will have no problems providing the wool is changed out on a regular(suited to the system) interval.
When I gravel vac I Hoover the entire area so it is done, this is also often completed at the time interval where the filter is broken down for a clean.
I have had no problems, I've done it the same way for ever.
The fastest way to kill the bacteria is prolonged exposure to air. Drying out. Keep it submersed where possible, I also understand (read it somewhere) it will start dying after around 45 minutes without a flow of oxygenated water.
I understand the only way to have an efficient bacteria bed in a system is by using a deep substrate of 10cm/4"+ or by using a plenum chamber DSB which employs a similar depth of sand.
My water change is based on what is necessary to achieve a clean substrate and filter material, sometimes it's large, other times it is of less volume
I apologise unreservedly for misbehaving, I stand by my actions but perhaps they were not for the public domain.
I'm glad scottyhorse cantered in!
Forgive my use of the word child as obviously you are more mature than me!
It took a child to make men stop acting like children! That's all I'm saying about that!
Old Scales
Aquarium Advice Addict
Jeeesh! Jamie I was just reading your post above about what kills BB and realized that I never restarted my filters after feeding the fish yesterday morning. So it's been 24 hrs without flow. Yikes. Looks like I'll be monitoring closely for the next few days.
At 65 yrs my "senile attacks" are occurring more often. When I was younger it was "stupid attacks". lol. I normally don't stop the filters except when I feed them baby brine shrimp. (shaking my head in self-amazement) OS
At 65 yrs my "senile attacks" are occurring more often. When I was younger it was "stupid attacks". lol. I normally don't stop the filters except when I feed them baby brine shrimp. (shaking my head in self-amazement) OS
Andy Sager
Aquarium Advice Addict
I know there has been much research into the BB bed but I'm going to simplify this in a non scientific way. This is what we knew and did and worked. Keep in mind that this is based on water that has a PH value of less than 7.0
Nitrosomas and Nitrobacters survive best in areas of higher oxygen levels. These are commonly found within filters. In the filter, there is media in which the BB can adhere to which is another reason why more BB is found in filter media. Now take a grain of aquarium gravel and put it under a microscope and you will see it's very jagged with many "holes" or places for the BB to attach to without getting washed away. This is not true of sand. Sand mostly is flat leaving the BB exposed to being washed off by a stronger current.
Keep in mind that when a tank is cycled, it means that there exists enough BB within the entire system to handle the bioload of the tank's life force. So when you clean out your filter, you are actually depleting the BB bed. Thankfully, they regenerate quickly and you may never see the little rise in ammonia on your test kit.
As for the gravel, The recommendation was always not to destroy the entire bed at one time as this would cause a recycling of the aquarium. Using the quick regenerating position, by only cleaning a section of the gravel at each water change, the BB bed would have the chance to regenerate and there should be little effect on the ammonia levels and fish while it does that. The good part was that IF you did too much, again, this is based on the water's PH being below 7.0, any ammonia produced at that lower PH is converted into ammonium which is not toxic to the fish. If you were having a higher PH level, it was recommended to only clean either the filter or the section of gravel bed at one time. Too drastic a change would cause a spike in toxic ammonia and more water changes would be needed to maintain a safe level for the fish. This makes for an unstable environment and fish don't like that
Now I can just hear people saying to themselves " What about the Fluidized bed filters that are totally sand based?" All I can say is that in the warehouse in FL where we tried them, they were not as effective as the "wet/dry" filters we designed. Before that filter, we had done experiments in tanks using the same UG filters ( I told you it was a while back LOL ) the same type and number of fish with one tank using sand and one tank using crushed coral as the base. The CC tank did everything faster than the sand tank. That led us to believe that sand is not the best media for a bacteria bed. Then along came the wet/dry filter and there was no gravel or sand in tanks at all!!! All the bacteria either lived in the decor or the DLS material in the filter. You didn't change DLS material as often as you would from a HOB or canister filter and you just lightly cleaned off the "gunk" because a pre-filter caught all the large particles. That could be changed as frequently as necessary.
But before I get too far off tangent, that was the reasoning behind not over cleaning the gravel bed at one time.
Hope this helps
Andy Sager
Aquarium Advice Addict
That's why I use sponge filters with baby fish. No need to turn them off, ever. Keeps me looking like a genius.
( My problem was always running water. I'd walk away for a minute then there would be a flood on the floor by the time I got back.
)
J.Mcpeak
Aquarium Advice Addict
That's what my mum uses for an excuse "senior moment" like the day she couldn't figure out why the salt grinder wasn't dispensing salt, "it's got salt in" she said, turns out the lid was on!
she's about your age. What's the phrase, to err is human!
I have "stupid attacks" see my previous post concerning the definition of OS!
It's an illness!
Hopefully no loss will occur.
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