Balanced Aquariums (by request)

[mfdrookie516]

I guess what most people are trying to say, and what I'm seeing as well, is that you're just describing an aquarium that has minimal equipment and relies on water changes. There's actually nothing 'balanced' about it. A balanced aquarium, per your definition, would be self sustaining... which it isn't.

The fact that you say 'had' instead of 'have' also makes it apparent that this either didn't work, or consumed too much time. Without successfully keeping a tank like you originally described (not one like you've since described) for less than a year or more would not be any sort of accomplishment.

The other problems I notice are that you say "you need a tank thats fairly large, preferably 20-30 gallons. all the media should be added and you can cycle the tank with one of the fish species listed above. common guppies work the best. NO FISHLESS CYCLING, its not appropriate for this, you need to get the fish used to this envirenmet asap." If this were, indeed, a 'balanced aquarium', there would be nothing to get used to compared to any other tank.


This is the reason you've claimed that I 'hate' on you. When you start suggesting things, you fail to provide any real reason for doing so. You've yet to say anything in this thread that makes this sound like anything other than a poorly put together, low budget, tank that has minimal equipment and a poor understanding of how 'natural' aquariums work.

 

[GhillieSniper115]

What fish did you use?

I also didn't ask why it needed circulation. But thats ok. Theres a lot of posts happening here. I am not fighting you. I am just curious about a few things. Plants are indeed amazing at taking up nutrients, and well planted tanks can even have zero nitrates because the plants use them all. I put plants in my tanks for the benefit of the gas exchange/waste uptake, so I think I understand the idea.

Its in the thread. I used common guppies

 

[GhillieSniper115]

Ok just to clarify a few things for my own peace of mind. The tank is like a Walstad but the differences are:
Regular PWC to prevent the build up of organic waste.
And.....?

No regular pwc. Only if needed. The tank isn't realy like a walstad

 

[GhillieSniper115]

Whats a 'u thing'?

I ment to type think but it auto corrected sorry

 

[GhillieSniper115]

The amount of plants required to keep up with the oxygen consumption by algae, the elodea itself, snails, and the fish (especially livebearers) would be a huge quantity, especially at night. Regardless, you've nullified the point by adding a powerhead to the design, which allows for oxygen exchange at the water's surface. I'm not saying your upgraded design won't work, I'm saying the original design will fail long term.

Plants only use oxygen at night when it's dark and the same goes for algae. That's why you would turn on the overhead light at night

 

[GhillieSniper115]

See what I mean? Very confusing to follow.... I am typing on an EVO right now with a virtual keyboard. Not that difficult to proofread and edit! Especially with the AA app.

Well I'm on my iPhone so it auto corrects sometimes :/

 

[GhillieSniper115]

I guess what most people are trying to say, and what I'm seeing as well, is that you're just describing an aquarium that has minimal equipment and relies on water changes. There's actually nothing 'balanced' about it. A balanced aquarium, per your definition, would be self sustaining... which it isn't.

The fact that you say 'had' instead of 'have' also makes it apparent that this either didn't work, or consumed too much time. Without successfully keeping a tank like you originally described (not one like you've since described) for less than a year or more would not be any sort of accomplishment.

The other problems I notice are that you say "you need a tank thats fairly large, preferably 20-30 gallons. all the media should be added and you can cycle the tank with one of the fish species listed above. common guppies work the best. NO FISHLESS CYCLING, its not appropriate for this, you need to get the fish used to this envirenmet asap." If this were, indeed, a 'balanced aquarium', there would be nothing to get used to compared to any other tank.

This is the reason you've claimed that I 'hate' on you. When you start suggesting things, you fail to provide any real reason for doing so. You've yet to say anything in this thread that makes this sound like anything other than a poorly put together, low budget, tank that has minimal equipment and a poor understanding of how 'natural' aquariums work.

I'll give you an explanation:

I had a set up like this for a year and everything was fine. I didn't realy do any water changes because it didn't need it. I ended it wen I took up breeding swordtails.
By no fishless cycling, that's exactly what I'm saying. The tank needs to be cycled with fish. The tank is selfsustainable

 

[meegosh]

A self sustaining tank, IMO, would be one you do no maintenance other than top offs, you do not feed, you do not do anything basically. This is clearly not a self sustaining tank.

Why does the tank need to be cycled with fish? What does it matter? Why subject the fish to high ammonia and nitrite levels unnecessarily?

 

[ashleynicole]

A pond has natural water runoff and water replacement. You still havnt mentioned what happens to dissolved toxins that build up over time? Water changes are essential not just to reduce nitrates but to provide fresh trace elements and minerals. And also to remove the accumulation of dissolved toxins that don't get used by the plants and are left as water evaporated.

How is it natural to leave lights running 24/7? That doesn't make sense. In real life the lights aren't on 24/7...

It really seems like you've written a post on something that really isn't safe or appropriate .

 

[ShadoeFox]

Actually, this sounds similar to a planted shrimp tank concept I read in a magazine recently, at least in theory. I think the basic idea is the amonia, nitrite, and nitrates are going into a HEAVILY planted tanks biosphere, ie the plants, which are in effect working as the filter. The BB exists, it's in the rocks and would honestly end up on the stalks of the plants I expect. That's why a thirty gallon tank is populated with eight guppies or other small livebearer. The population density is kept small enough to prevent problems. you just replace water.

When you think about it, compare this concept to a man made large fishing pond, no pumps or filters. There's going to be HUGE numbers of plants, algae, what have you compared to a relatively small population of fish (When you get right down to it, the "Stock" if it's stocked regularly will have mass die offs due to infighting, shock, and fishermen).

In essence this isn't a "Filterless" system. This is a "Natural" system.

I'm not sure I'd ever try this (Though the shrimp bowl... it was a one gallon "Goldfish" bowl, actually... I might).

 

[Nomadu571]

"2 you should add the plants once the fish are added and after the tank is cycled, add the snails. Amount of fish should be about 6-7, snails 10, and plants doesnt matter as long as its less then 10"

Sorry but discussing a heavily planted tank when it clearly states less than 10 plants?

Also the poster said earlier that they had said to add plants to help the cycle, when they have also clearly stated to add plants once the fish are added and AFTER the tank has cycled.

Again is this thread of any relevance whatsoever if your not going to tell us what we are cycling? A filter sponge or decor or what?

 

[ShadoeFox]

Missed the only ten plants part... Yeah, this would have to be heavily planted to work

 

[Nomadu571]

Cool, I understand the concept but how is this different to what were doing currently. If your cycling a filter sponge and need a filter or heavily planted substrate. A fish in cycle, and a normal water change schedule?

Surely a self sustainable tank would be a tank you wouldn't need to water change at all and that all the waste is used up by other bacterial systems. Making it a complete Eco system?. This obviously being impossible in a home aquarium.
There must come a stage when mechanical filtration is used, other wise the water would surely turn to sludge over time? If not mechanical then human by gravel vacuuming or removing waste in a some way.

You cannot compare to an outdoor pond which is subject to more gas exchange due to wind and rain. With thunderstorms that cause a rise in nitrogen in water systems effecting ponds etc. Rain also adding fresh water to ponds etc.

Are we not just talking about a normal tank here with less filtration and more plants?

 

[Nomadu571]

All i think we really need to know on top I the original post is;

Filtration, if none then how do you deal with the water becoming toxic quickly.

Cycling, what do you cycle? You have the fish, substrate and decor, per the list, plants to add after. So what do we cycle, or even how? Do you water change during cycling or not? How do you cycle a tank which is just essentially a box with water in it?

 

[Rokuzachi]

In my experience (4 tanks) with the silent cycle, it's taken more than "10 plants" to avoid ammonia and nitrite readings. Even with fish that have a small bioload, 4 of them required a very large amount of fast growing stem plants (Egeria densa and najas, along with Hornwort, in addition to the anubias, crypts and apons that were not placed there for the purpose of removing ammonia).

In my most recent tank, in order to avoid slipping into a typical cycle, I currently have 12x 6-10" stems of Egeria densa, 3 large bushes of Hornwort about the size of my two fists together, 3x 12" Rotala rotundifola stems, 5x 4-8" Hydrotriche hottoniiflora stems and some assorted apons, crypts, swords, and java ferns. This is what it presently takes to counter 4x 1.5" fish, 1 large snail, 3 medium snails, and a wealth of small to tiny snails.

This is fairly typical from what I have read of others' experiences with performing a cycle this way. A large bioload often requires the tank to become a jungle of fast growing stem plants to counteract it. And as far as I know, when you do it this way, you always add the plants before the fish.

 

[ShadoeFox]

The shrimp tank idea I'm kind of comparing to this that I read actually did cite only topping off the water, but again... that's with shrimp. I could see how this might work with a heavily planted and VERY lightly stocked tank (And to be fair, eight guppies in a 30 gallon is pretty heavily stocked... until...) Still, while it might be an interesting experiment, I'd still be very hesitant.

 

[Nomadu571]

Me too, doesn't sound like a very bright idea if you want live fish to me.

 

[eco23]

In my experience (4 tanks) with the silent cycle, it's taken more than "10 plants" to avoid ammonia and nitrite readings. Even with fish that have a small bioload, 4 of them required a very large amount of fast growing stem plants (Egeria densa and najas, along with Hornwort, in addition to the anubias, crypts and apons that were not placed there for the purpose of removing ammonia).

In my most recent tank, in order to avoid slipping into a typical cycle, I currently have 12x 6-10" stems of Egeria densa, 3 large bushes of Hornwort about the size of my two fists together, 3x 12" Rotala rotundifola stems, 5x 4-8" Hydrotriche hottoniiflora stems and some assorted apons, crypts, swords, and java ferns. This is what it presently takes to counter 4x 1.5" fish, 1 large snail, 3 medium snails, and a wealth of small to tiny snails.

This is fairly typical from what I have read of others' experiences with performing a cycle this way. A large bioload often requires the tank to become a jungle of fast growing stem plants to counteract it. And as far as I know, when you do it this way, you always add the plants before the fish.

In fact (correct me if I'm wrong), but isn't one technique involved in silent cycling actually letting the organics in the certain substrates begin to leech ammonia long before fish are added? That way it allows the beneficial bacteria to get a foot hold and the nitrogen cycle begins (as well as letting the plants flourish) before fish are ever brought into the equation?

After thinking about this a bit more and digging through some articles...I'll stick to and repeat my original statement. Throw a filter on it and call it a planted tank. And I agree that for this idea to even be feasible you'd need a forest of plants in there.

To me, unless this is put together by a true expert of the technique, it simply amounts to a poorly maintained aquarium without a filter. Just because something possibly can be done...doesn't mean it should.

 

[Rokuzachi]

In fact (correct me if I'm wrong), but isn't one technique involved in silent cycling actually letting the organics in the certain substrates begin to leech ammonia long before fish are added? That way it allows the beneficial bacteria to get a foot hold and the nitrogen cycle begins (as well as letting the plants flourish) before fish are ever brought into the equation?

After thinking about this a bit more and digging through some articles...I'll stick to and repeat my original statement. Throw a filter on it and call it a planted tank. And I agree that for this idea to even be feasible you'd need a forest of plants in there.

To me, unless this is put together by a true expert of the technique, it simply amounts to a poorly maintained aquarium without a filter. Just because something possibly can be done...doesn't mean it should.

Yeah, I think there are a variety of ways that it can be done with success. On my last tank I had it running for 72 hours and with just plants and some seeded bio media and was feeding it ammonia to see what it was capable of eating. Prior to that I had some rotting shrimp in there before the plants even went in.

I think it was getting rid of around 1 ppm in twenty four hours, which I found was very easy to overload, not necessarily with just the fish but any amount of uneaten food in a tank that young. I had to add a lot more plants or else I would've been doing food pickup duty after every feeding.

I think it's a great way to cycle but youve got to keep a very close eye on things since fish are involved.

 

[absolutangel04]

Yeah, I am still seeing heavily planted, lightly stocked tank without a filter. The OP said that having it lightly stocked is very important which I am guessing is because otherwise ammo and other waste would build up too quickly. Since the OP used common guppies, I have doubts about this set-up sustaining 6-7 swords for a length of time. They are definitely bigger and messier than common guppies.
Personally, I prefer my filtered set-ups for the fact that I can have more stock. But, I appreciate the OP sharing the idea.