Balanced Aquariums (by request)

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mfdrookie516 said:
Either because you've failed to do this....

... or you're just really lucky, just like your luck with not using dechlorinator on new york city tap water (per another thread). I'm guessing it's the latter... so I'd suggest you go buy a lottery ticket and remember who suggested you do so ;)

Ok but I'm still keeping the spoils
 
Btw one thing I forgot to mention: the fish I got for the balanced aquarium wer already taken from another balanced tank. So is it possible that the fish have adapted to such an environment over many generations?
 
GhillieSniper115 said:
We are con walstad because it has nothing to do with a balanced aquarium

'we'? Speak for yourself. I am still undecided when it comes to the Walstad tanks but I believe it is way more likely to succeed than your method.
 
So we're clear...I asked for this thread because GhillieSniper made the comment on another topic that "You don't need a filter for a balanced aquarium" (*edited for grammar and spelling ;) )

That blanket statement challenges the fundamentals of successful fishkeeping IMO. I requested this thread as a challenge to backup your ideas with facts as opposed to simply saying "I've done it".

While I neither support, agree with, or promote this idea...I will give you credit for following through with producing the thread and being open to challenges in the logic. I think virtually none of us would agree with this system...but it does take a bit of courage (or insanity) to put information like this out there and respond to the (deserved IMO) criticism.
 
Mumma.of.two said:
'we'? Speak for yourself. I am still undecided when it comes to the Walstad tanks but I believe it is way more likely to succeed than your method.

Oh ok I thought people said they didn't like it. Also walstad has nothing to do with wat I'm saying
 
eco23 said:
So we're clear...I asked for this thread because GhillieSniper made the comment on another topic that "You don't need a filter for a balanced aquarium" (*edited for grammar and spelling ;) )

That blanket statement challenges the fundamentals of successful fishkeeping IMO. I requested this thread as a challenge to backup your ideas with facts as opposed to simply saying "I've done it".

While I neither support, agree with, or promote this idea...I will give you credit for following through with producing the thread and being open to challenges in the logic. I think virtually none of us would agree with this system...but it does take a bit of courage (or insanity) to put information like this out there and respond to the (deserved IMO) criticism.

Well It could have been done without the inapropriat comments from you and mfdougy. I mean come on, we are all mature here aren't we? Wasn't It you that told me to keep an open mind and opinion? Well obviously others have failed to do so
 
GhillieSniper115 said:
Well It could have been done without the inapropriat comments from you and mfdougy. I mean come on, we are all mature here aren't we? Wasn't It you that told me to keep an open mind and opinion? Well obviously others have failed to do so

You're right. I was joking around and I apologize. I do respect the fact that you stood by your beliefs here regardless of whether I support them or not.
 
Well It could have been done without the inapropriat comments from you and mfdougy. I mean come on, we are all mature here aren't we? Wasn't It you that told me to keep an open mind and opinion? Well obviously others have failed to do so

I have to disagree again. Of anybody here, I'm probably one of those who is most open to non-traditional aquarium keeping methods, but even I can see major issues with your suggested methods. Further, your arguments for why it should or needs to be done the way you suggest shows clearly that while you have a very basic understanding of what you are proposing, you don't truly understand fully either the biology nor the chemistry behind.

This entire thread leads me to believe that you are probably pretty young, and just getting a good start on your aquarium keeping ventures. Like others, I applaud your willingness to post up the thread and try and support you position.

That said however, ignoring obvious errors, restating your position (and changing it in the process) and making statements like "I know it works cause I've done it" doesn't make it right. Nor does saying that its balanced and/or self-sustaining, when it is obviously neither, make it so.

You proposed your method ~ we've shown you the errors ~ now take it and learn. You asked the question, "why it worked". Personally, like others, I would propose that there are either a lot of factors that were involved that you haven't informed us of, or it truly didn't work. Your fish may have survived, but that doesn't mean that you had the "balanced/self-sustaining" system that you thought you did. Personally I've seen some fish that have survived some pretty dismal and unhealthy conditions (not saying that yours did mind, simply stating a fact).
 
Wow, am I late to this party or what?

I was going to try to respond with some sort of a well put together statement, but instead, I'm just going to point out what is wrong with some of the things you said.

*if you want you can add frogs or something that eat access decaying plant matter.*

Guess what happens to the waste that the frog eats? It's digested and excreted into the water column as waste and ammonia. What would otherwise happen to the leaf? It gets broken down by bacteria etc and transformed into waste and ammonia. Nothing gain other than adding another bioload to your system.

Ya walstad didn't really know what she was talking about

Diana Walstad has a degree in microbiology and has spent years doing actual research in aquaria. She also wrote the book on planted tank ecology (called "Ecology of the Planted Aquarium", actually). She currently serves as a technical adviser to the ADA.

Plants only use oxygen at night when it's dark and the same goes for algae. That's why you would turn on the overhead light at night
No lights are on at night until before you go to bed. That's not safe to leave them on 24/7
Totally, completely untrue. Plants are constantly using oxygen (else you wouldn't see plants grow or move during the day), but during the day photosynthesis trumps respiration. Since there is no photosynthesis at night, respiration takes over.

BUT

If you can manage to gas your fish with CO2 w/o injecting CO2 (either pressurized, or DIY for that matter), that would be a feat for the ages. There is no real threat to leaving the lights on other than algae.

The "Dark Reaction" is a bit of a misnomer. It simply does not need light, rather than needing dark.

Elodea plants are used and even if you just ad one, it will grow over an inch a day and is a vary hardy plant and removes alot of toxins from the water.

Only if you have the light to drive it. Plants only take up enough nutrients to satisfy that drive. One plant in a tank gets the same amount of light as several (assuming shading isn't a significant factor, which it usually isn't), therefor will grow the same amount. Mere presence of nutrients is not enough for faster growth. They're autotrophs, not heterotrophs. If your plants are at their nutrient capacity, you're already running into other issues.

u need to cycle with fish and plants so the nitrogen fixing bacteria can establish themselves

What, on the fish :blink:? On the plants? Bacteria develop in aquariums because their is an excess of ammonia. Excesses of ammonia is bad. Every time. Period. It's like smoking. People smoke, but it takes years for them to develop symptoms. Ammonia is worse for fish than smoke is for humans, and it will damage their gils. Allowing fish to 'adapt' to this environment is like letting a human adapt to starvation or dehydration. Sure, you body will eventually accommodate to some extent, but really?

You would be better off adding plants ammonia first and letting your bacteria grow, because those little buggers grow SLOW. THEN add plants, and allow them to acclimate and start sucking your nutrients, and THEN add fish. Wait, doesn't that process sound familiar.....

fishless cycling is usually for beginners*

This statement, more than anything else, discredits you. Fish in cycling is for amateurs and the uninitiated. Fishless cycling is the advanced technique for anyone serious about the hobby.

And finally:

Dont trust wiki anyone can edit it it's all bs.*

Don't be hating on wiki. It's more accurate than most people give it credit, and has a team dedicated to keeping it accurate.
 
aqua_chem said:
Diana Walstad has a degree in microbiology and has spent years doing actual research in aquaria. She also wrote the book on planted tank ecology (called "Ecology of the Planted Aquarium", actually). She currently serves as a technical adviser to the ADA.

I would love to get my hands on a copy of her book but I'm finding it a little difficult to track down without paying huge money/shipping fees :(
 
I agree with everything except this-

This statement, more than anything else, discredits you. Fish in cycling is for amateurs and the uninitiated. Fishless cycling is the advanced technique for anyone serious about the hobby.

Pretty much everyone I know that owns lots of tanks or has a fishroom or whatever does fish-in cycling with media transfer. It takes pretty much the same level of commitment to stay on top of a safe fish-in cycle as it does to do a fishless one, at least for those who are testing and logging daily etc, doesn't really apply to the raw shrimp method.

The vast majority of people that I see doing fishless cycles are new to the hobby, or at least new to taking it seriously.

@mumma i am pretty sure its available via e-book.
 
Pretty much everyone I know that owns lots of tanks or has a fishroom or whatever does fish-in cycling with media transfer. It takes pretty much the same level of commitment to stay on top of a safe fish-in cycle as it does to do a fishless one, at least for those who are testing and logging daily etc, doesn't really apply to the raw shrimp method.

The vast majority of people that I see doing fishless cycles are new to the hobby, or at least new to taking it seriously.

I think it might be appropriate to amend my statement to include more levels, but when I personally think of a 'fish in cycle,' I think about fish a tank without the luxury of seeded media, building bacteria colonies from scratch, commonly seen with people who buy fish before learning about the nitrogen cycle. I wouldn't really consider properly seeded media cycles in the same category as traditional 'fish in' cycling simply because the cycle is usually short and not particularly severe.Rather, I consider cycling a seeded tank another beast altogether.


It's all a matter or perspective. My last tank I did a seeded, fishless cycle.
 
+1,000,000 to aqua-chem!

Was thinking of getting my plant physiology books out but was waiting to see how this ends up.

Now for my 10 cents...

I'm sure this setup CAN work with carefull planning and execution. BUT 99% of the people on here do not have a degree in botany, microbiology or aquaculture. So very few have the knowledge to attempt this even though we have the skills. I'm not trying to offend anybody, I'm just stating a 'fact'. To suggest an advanced setup like this to beginners to the hobby can be fatal.

Then, the term 'Natural Aquarium' is a complete contradiction. Those little finned creatures we keep in our waterfilled glass containers have evolved somewhere in the world to suit a specific environment. A process that took 100's and 1000's of years. What we as aquarists trying to do is to simulate that environment in order to enjoy this beautiful piece of nature we can put in our homes. We can never replicate the environment, but with technology we can make things a lot easier for ourselves and the organisms we intend to enjoy. This includes filters, heater, chemicals, even forums like this makes a huge difference to the hobby.

I'm not disputing your method. But, this has to be laid out more carefully. There is a lot of beginners reading this that might try it. And in 2 weeks they'll have 20 tetras in a 30 gal tank upside down wondering why.

Hope all this makes sense.
 
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