Betta behavior

[HannahJ]

Okay, Weasel and Cinder, I am going to have to disagree with your statements. Your posts heavily imply that someone choosing to regularly stimulate and exercise their fish in accordance to the behaviour they would be showing the wild is somehow neglectful and even deliberately harmful is offensive to me.

Weasel, you say that bettas flaring are "*beep* off", by which I assume you mean to say that they are being infuriated and angered; I would disagree with this characterization. You're anthropomorphising these fish. For them, flaring is a natural reaction to an external stimulus, not a representative of emotion (which I would hesitate to apply to a fish in any case). Would you likewise disapprove of dogs showing their teeth or holding their tails stiffly to each other? Or of horses pinning their ears to each other? This is similarly nothing more or less than a natural territorial behaviour that bettas would regularly engage in in the wild, since those rice paddies you showed certainly held more than one betta each. Also, please refer to the wikipedia article on bettas, which states:

Interesting results were obtained, however; for example, it was shown that the presentation of such an aggression-eliciting stimulus will act as an unconditional stimulus in classical conditioning, and as a reinforcer in operant conditioning (Thompson, 1966). It is as if the fish finds the opportunity to attack another fish rewarding."[emphasis added]

In light of that, I would say that I am hardly going on a lark and a whim when I say that giving a betta the opportunity to display natural behaviour is something other than "just mean". By the way, why do you continually refer to the betta as a "mean" fish? It's a fish. It's actions have no intent of either meanness or kindness behind anything they do. I think you should take a step back from this situation--I think you are attaching emotional significance to the actions of an animal and are possibly having your judgement biased. (Forgive me if I sound a little defensive, but I really do not appreciate be called flat-out "mean" and being accused of not being a "true fish lover" because I do something I've researched and judged to be best for my fish.)

Cinder, I would also like you to elaborate on your "research". Do you mean anecdotal experience when you say research, or have you done large-scale, controlled experiments based on the theory that stimulation equates to a shorter lifespan? Why have you asked a rhetorical question like "Why do people purposely stress their fish by making them flare?" when I've clearly explained my reasons above, unless you are trying to somehow shame people of opposing viewpoints from you? I personally find people who let their bettas live sedentary lives to be harming their fish, since a lack of stimulation results in far less exercise, and thus a lowered quality of life and health, but I'm not going to create posts that center around the implication that anyone who does choose to stimulate their fish are somehow intentionally cruel to their fish.

Please, step back and take a harder look at your accusations against people who choose to stimulate their bettas. There is a difference between agreeing to disagree, and straight up insulting people with an opposing viewpoint.

Thanks.

 

[Andos99]

anthropomorphising

huh?

 

[Codefox]

huh?

It means giving them people like qualities.

 

[Tostada]

Weasel:

I wish I could say this a way that didn't sound mean...

That's honestly the most grammar mistakes I've ever seen in any post on any forum in my life. You probably spent 10 min. or more writing it. Why not spend a few seconds reading it back and seeing if it makes sense?

For example:

I'll say this (1) I have breed (2) and rasied (3) betta's (4) for the last 5 yrs. The flaring of a betta Is (5) not something you want them to do every day or make them do everyday. (6) The flaring of a betta is a sign his (7) *beep* off. Not anything more then (8) a act (9) of aggrstion. (10) By making a betta flare your (11) in fact upsetting the betta and there for (12) causeing (13) undo stress on the fish. Betta's (14) have been breed (15) for 100's of year (16) to do nothing but fight and (17) even thou (18) 99% of all betta's (19) bought today have never been (20) fought a day in there (21) life. (22) Put it (23) close to another male and it's (24) frist (25) reaction is to attack the other fish. It's not being playful. It's not showing off to the point of I look better then (26) you do. (27) It's flat saying I'll kill you if you come any closer. (28)
By making your betta flare at either it's (29) reflection or another betta you are in fact. (30) Upseting (31) this (32) fish for no reason at all other then (33) to make it look pretty to you. Flaring is done for two reason (34) and two reason (35) only.

1. To so (36) it's (37) wilness (38) to fight the other fish it thanks (39) it see (40) in the glass or the the other fish close to it.

1. run-on sentence
2. breed = present tense. You mean bred.
3. raised
4. Betta's? This should not be possessive.
5. Yes! A readable sentence except for this capitilization error!
6. ...except that saying "every day" then "everyday" is awkward.
7. His? Do you mean he is?
8. I think you mean than.
9. a act? This should be "an act".
10. aggrstion?
11. Your is a possessive pronoun. You mean "you're" or "you are."
12. Therefore is one word.
13. causing
14. Betta's? This should not be possessive.
15. breed = present tense. You mean bred.
16. years
17. You need to pick and or even though.
18. though
19. Betta's? This should not be possessive.
20. You probably want to say "never fought" or "never been in a fight."
21. their
22. Bettas is plural, so life must be pluralized.
23. It is out of place here, as it doesn't agree with "bettas" in the previous sentence.
24. It's is a contraction. You mean "its."
25. first?
26. I think you mean than.
27. Very awkward. You should offset the second part in quotes (or use several hyphens).
28. missing quotes
29. It's is a contraction. You mean "its."
30. Why did you put a period in the middle of a sentence?
31. Upsetting
32. This doesn't fit the voice you're writing in. You should probably say the.
33. I think you mean than.
34. reasons
35. reasons
36. To so? This is nonsensical. I guess you mean to show.
37. It's is a contraction. You mean "its."
38. willingness
39. thinks
40. sees



So maybe you mean something like this?

I'll say this: I have bred and raised bettas for the last 5 years. The flaring of a betta is not something you want them to do everyday or make them do everyday. The flaring of a betta is a sign he’s p***ed off -- not anything more than an act of aggression. By making a betta flare you’re in fact upsetting the betta and therefore causing undo stress on the fish. Bettas have been bred for hundreds of years to do nothing but fight even though 99% of all bettas bought today have never fought a day in their lives. Put one close to another male and its first reaction is to attack the other fish. It's not being playful. It's not showing off to the point of , “I look better than you do.” It's flat saying, “I'll kill you if you come any closer.”

By making your betta flare at either its reflection or another betta you are in fact upsetting the fish for no reason at all other than to make it look pretty to you. Flaring is done for two reasons and two reasons only:

1. To show its willingness to fight the other fish it thinks it sees in the glass or the the other fish close to it.

That's just the first fifth of the post. After the "to so" part my brain nearly exploded. That's the best I could come up with as far as what you meant to say, but now that I cleaned up the spelling and grammar, it just seems a little ... immature? Again, I'm really not trying to be offensive here. It's just that you're saying a lot of things that you are providing no real justification for.

Look at HannaJ's first post. She's talking very rationally, using common sense, and even referring to things she's read about brain chemistry. Your post is essentially just saying that bettas are total fighting machines and flaring means they're going mad with rage. If bettas are such little bada**es, shouldn't they be able to handle the stimulation? That's like saying a Navy Seal is trained to be a killing machine, so if you accidentally bumped in to one at the supermarket he would have such an uncontrollable rush of adrenaline that his heart may explode. It doesn't make sense.

All that aside, I'm inclined to trust HannahJ here, simply because her post is readable. She even uses paragraphs and good punctuation!

Interesting that you're both from Texas. I guess that ruins any jokes about the educational system I could've come up with.

 

[Guest]

I really don't care what you thank about my gramer. I take a fence to the fact that just because I'm not as smart as you and can't pronoun things right and just because you can read something better then something else. That makes them right. Sorry I don't speak like you are type as good as you are some on here. But just because I made some mistakes does not give the fact to him. Because if I sat you at a table all day long 7 days aweek with some one you'd like to fight and maded you set there looking at this person while he made'd fight remarks to your face all day. That you wouldn't be stressed out and want to fight. So I guess if I stress you out like this all day look til you got use to it then. It's ok?
Another thing for every studie that was done on this behavior. One guy says it's ok there was another guy saying no it's not. So I guess if I come up with a rtical writen by one of those other guys you'll fellow long with the stupided redneck. Who by the way had to drop out of school to help his mother and my sister. Because My father had a major heart attack at 35 and I was 16 and had to go to work to support my family. Well then by all mean make all the remarks you want about me being stupid and my school. But the fact remains. That there is also a study saying that this. " Breeding and fighting are triggered by actions,chemicals, and markings that "release" those behaviors.A pheromone,a chemical hormone released from the body,may release spawning behavior in a fish of the opposite sex.Red and black colors of the stiff branchiostegel membranes beneath the gill covers are releasers of threat behavior in bettas. Another behavioral releaser is undulating the body.
Male anabantoids other then bettas can be induced to fight if isolated a few weeks in a small container and in sight of each other. The paradise fish,Macropodus opercularis, is trained as a fighting fish in China through just this manipulation. fighting fish males become aggressive when confronted with another male or even their own images. In it's lateral display the male erects it's unpaired fins and undulates rapidly. In fish other then fighting fish ,this is termed "tail-beating" Threatening males also erect it's gill covers { opercula } and spread the underlying branchiostegal membrane,a red plate with black central band, while this is termed naturl behavior. This causes undo stress on both the male and the opposite sex. Even shorting life over period of time. Other fish expand their front profilesby gaping the gill cover,But none doe it to the degree seen in fighting fish. This is another reson why they are favorites of behavioral scientists {ethologists}.
Males also display the same manner to femaes entring their territory .These displays may be followed by biting the fins,jaws,orbodies of either ,ale or female not willing to spwn. These aggressive or agonistic behaviors continue to be studied with mirrors model and even computerized animations. So far,they suggest that the sie of the fish,the size of the flaring gills , and the size of the fins have a large effect on the degree of behavior. and a hugh impack on the aggrastion one ,male shows to another male.

So Now if I have a paper stating that they will fight just to fight and re flarring as a sign of aggrastion and a sign of willingness to fight just because they are with in sight of each other. Does this not mean that I'm right. I have a paper to and have read and studed this fish for five years in a home breeding program where I hve spawned and breed short fins and long fin, all red and all black. I m now breeding a new spices in my books I'm breeding a super long finned vail tail right now I have a male 3 1/2months old with fins right at 4 1/2inche in lenght. Now this dosn't make me better then her. I'm not saying this, that dosn't men I'm right but in her own artical it states and I quote
" Because of the aggressive nature of this species, tankmates must be chosen carefully, and two male B. splendens should not be housed in the same tank unless they are separated by a dividing wall. (Male bettas do not 'fight to the death' in the wild; once one fish has clearly won the encounter, the loser will retreat to a safe location. In an aquarium, however, there is no place to run, and the winning fish will continue to attack the loser, often ending in death. It is possible to house two male bettas in a single very large tank, provided that there is plenty of cover (such as floating plants) and enough space for both males to establish their own territories.) However, this is an extremely risky procedure because of the male's natural territoriality. These experiments in housing males together often end in the death of one or both inhabitants of the tank. As a general rule, male Bettas cannot be housed together."

Now any moer remarks on my typing and gramer I will not take. I'm sorry I'm not a high school grads like you and just because I'm not dosn't give you the right to say your better then me or that some else is right just because they have a paper saying this. For ever one paper she finds say this. I can find one saying that and the last I heard everybody on here has there right to their own opion. Also just becasue some of my "A" are missing from my words doesn't mean I did't hit the button.Not all of use can afford togo buy a new computer when a letter stops working.
And beside's opion's or what this site is about every body has one on something or other they beleave in and just.Not to run people down because your better then ever one here with your proper english and your perfect speling.

 

[joannde]

Weasel F and HannahJ - I wanted to thank you both for this discussion. I'd like to see the dicussion continue.

Weasel - there is no reason for you to have to apologize and explain. I understand your posts just fine. In your last post you answered a question I was going to ask - do wild betta's fight to the death. The explanation that they can run in the wild makes alot of sense. I was also wondering if two wild bettas were put into close quarters would THEY fight to the death, or is this something that has purely been bred into the species by man.
I'd also love to see a pic of your long-finned male - could you post one somewhere ?

HannahJ - your post was very interesting. You're right about us anthropomorphising not only bettas but many of our pets. We treat them as if they had human emotions and watch their behaviors as if they were human. While that's not always a bad thing (as it can lead us to treat animals with the dignity and respect they deserve) it does cause issues in our care. One of my favorite shows is "the Dog Whisperer" and 9 times out 10 the reason people need help retraining their dogs is because they have treated them as people, not dogs. Since dog behavior and people behavior are very different this can often lead to difficulties in behavior. I can't imagine that this would not be true for Betta's also.

Personally I still don't know if it is better "to flare or not to flare" - but both of your posts have gotten me thinking about the subject and wanting to learn more.

 

[Codefox]

I don't know if its better to flare or not flare either. I do know that Gator looks much happier today with the filter turned off. The filter isn't one that can be easily aimed at a wall, so for now I won't run a filter until I find one that has an outlet that won't make my fish miserable.

I found a lot of 25 watt heaters on Amazon as well, so I'll have to get one. Right now my corner of the office is a good temperature for him but I suspect when winter rolls around, even here in Florida, there could be trouble since this building won't run heat at night. If it gets warm now...it'll get cool.

I wish I could get a good picture of him...he's one of the prettiest bettas I've ever seen.

 

[verucaproduce]

That's honestly the most grammar mistakes I've ever seen in any post on any forum

I was unaware that we were being graded. I guess I should study up on my grammer as not to offend anyone. 8O But seriously, I can't imagine how much time you spent picking that post apart. Maybe we should stick to the topic at hand???

Personally, I noticed that my betta seemed very agitated when I had one of those stainless backed thermometers in his tank. He flared at the thermometer, he flared at his reflection in the tank. He flared at the bf. lol

As soon as I took it out, his whole demeanor changed. JMO.

 

[MSU Fan]

I did aim my filter at the wall of the tank, and betta seems happier! So hooray! Also, I told him his fins looked beautiful last night, and I think he got mad at me (beautiful is not a masculine description for a fighting fish!).

Can fish hear?

 

[Guest]

This hope not cause I tell my Apistogramma female cockatoo she had better start breeding are what had better bred or she's going to be replace with one that does. LOL. Now I will say on thing on the subject of the filter. Most betta's don't care for fast moving water at all and will go out of their way to stay out of it.

Someone asked to see picturs of my bettas. So I'll take a few and post them really fast.

betta 1 crowntail male full mask.

crowntail male

same crowntail with flash

male with fry

vail tail with fry

some halfmoon fry

Some of the half moon fry at 5 weeks

This is my super vail tail male at 12 weeks

butterfly male { blood}http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid207/pe81f88accb421c7bd97b5f20d6f1fc71/eeb47544.jpg

ecound genaration of super vail at 5m old has 4" long fins + some

ok now there's a few others males

some of the new blood line just come of age to bred

The new half moon pr to spwan

The twins two males double tails in the same tank what was i thnking,J/K there very young and get along great. They have been in the sme tank from day one.

the next line coming up. This guy was just taking out of the fry tank and is a little sad he's not with his new babys still. The fry is 4 days old today

So there's some of my 150+ males and females and just some of the 8 frys ranging from 5 days old to 4months. Hope you emjoy them.
ok here's the picture of blood that didn't come throw at the top.

 

[hc8719]

so weasel, do you sell the baby's to lfs then?

 

[verucaproduce]

What beautiful fish! The babies are so cute. hehe

 

[Guest]

Yes i do the vail tail females I use as in store cedit and the males I sell for $1.50 each. Then the crown tails I sell them to two differnt store and i make $10 off males and $7 off femles. Now the half moons I'm just now get some old enought to sell. at $ 20 each females $13

 

[HannahJ]

Weasel, I want to apologize for the misunderstanding between us. I'm not trying to say your position is wrong; rather, I was trying to get you to acknowledge that my position deserves just as much respect as yours. I know it's impossible to conclusively prove either side, and you made a good point in saying that there are studies to back both--though I would like to point out that the section you quoted from the wikipedia article was talking about housing bettas together, something I certainly am not advocating.

Really, all I'm asking is that you don't accuse me of being deliberately cruel to my fish, or tell people researching the topic that they're neglectful fish keepers if they put a mirror to their tank. I've researched this topic as much as possible, and I've used my own observations in my 6 or so years of betta keeping (though I don't breed like you do--those are some lovely fish!) to come to the conclusions I've reached, so I'm not just haphazardly doing what I do. And be sure, I know there's a possibility that the stimulation stresses the fish, and I've provided fake plants and hiding place so that if a betta is stressed, it has an escape. Fish, like all animals, are by and large going to do what's best for them. If one of my fish spends all of its time hiding and avoiding its neighbors, then by all means I'll house him separately, but otherwise, with my fish active, eating well, and looking healthy, I'm going to continue as I have.

On a side note, I'm also of the opinion that temperature makes a difference in all of this. What temperature do you keep your tanks at? I keep mine around 82 degrees F, since I believe to be closer to what they would be experiencing in the wild, and it seems to encourage more active behaviors. If the temperature was lower, I think the bettas would be less inclined to interact with each other, and probably more stressed about it. Any opinion in that regard?

Also, I could care less about grammar and spelling--it's simply the fallacies in your arguments I object to (such as putting emotional weight where there shouldn't really be any by giving fish feelings, or attacking the intents of the person with the opposing viewpoint).

joannde--even domestic bettas won't kill each other if provided an out. I know of several people with large community tanks with multiple male bettas in them (please note that this is not something I would personally do, though). Male bettas will establish a territory (which is why providing bettas, even in bowls, with a hidey-hole is encouraged [though I'm sure this will be contested by some as well]--it gives them a "territory" to guard), and so long as they don't do so too closely, run-ins will be very occasional and result in only minimal amounts of damage. Of course, this is a broad generalization and won't be true of all combinations of males.

As a personal anecdote, I had a betta jump a divider in a divided tank once. When I came home, I found two of my males in one half of the tank, and they were completely ignoring each other. No visible damage, ripped fins, missing scales, etc. They were just sitting there, one resting at the bottom of the tank, one floating at the top. Maybe they hadn't noticed there wasn't still a divider between them?

Oh, and tostada--thanks for finding my arguements preferable, but please don't hate on Texas, even in jest. There are some problems with the educational system, but the same is true for all the other states. I personally went to one of the best public school districts in the nation, if I do say so myself (our region and district usually have the national winning AcDec team, and top placing UIL teams, our bands are the best in the nation--and that's not just my band geek side bragging--and we produce more National Merit winners than most of the other regions in the nation). I know a lot of people like to write Texas off as a haven for rednecks and yokels, but it's a great state with a great history and culture.

 

[EdgarMedina1010]

Yeah I dont think grammar matters cause im sure everybody felt the message that 'weasel f' was trying to give out.....

 

[Guest]

HannahJ, I know there is tons of articals on each point of view and there is never going to be a complete answer to either side. Even if one side has show this to be true in a 100 differnt wys. The other side is always going to find way to prove the other wrong. I wasn't attacking you. So to say sorry if I did in any way. I was more upset with joannde-- Dogging me for my gramer and spelling. I know I don't type or spell or even speak the correct englih to alot of peoples likings. But I do try, Now I'm a true blooded Texan and I'm fixing to do something . I don't normally do and apolagize for getting upset with the person. who maded fun of my up bring. LOL Maybe I'll have to thank on it. Alittle lnger. But as for you Hannah I will say I'm sorry for anything i did type that may have hit you in the wrong way. I'm man enought to say I was wrong. I should have clamed down before I went off and for that I do apolagize.
I like you love to learn anything and everything I can bout the fishI find to be the most misunderstond fish in the world. I feel that on the tempature seting of the betta tank subject, That they are from warmer water. Their water condistions can reach as high as 98 in the summer time and and stay for days at this tempature. They are more active at 79 to 81 in my tanks. I house them in 5 g bowls. I use bowl so that the fry have a better changes at hanging on to the side when rounded and don't have to fight to make it to the surface as hard. My bettas will bred at 78 to 79 easier then at higher temps. every once in a while I run across a male that won't build nest at those temps and will at higher temps of 82 o 84. Now I will say this that once they've spawned. I'll raise the temp by a couple of degrees and place a cap on the tank. I do this so the humidatie will help maintane the bubble nest better. By locking in the mosture and helping keep the eggs wet and the bubbles from poping.
Once the eggs hatch, I leve the male in the tank for 4 days or antil the fry are swimming correct. Not pointing heads down or heads up. Now I can keep two frys from differnt parents togeather in the sme 55g tank and raise them togeather for 6 months or longer. Case in point the two double tail males in the picture in the before mentioned post, Those males are going on 9m's old and have been the only two fish in their tnk sences they where placed there right after I noticed they hd the same mrking at 10 weeks.
I call them twins , for a few reasons. they hve changed in color nd markings now that they have gotten oler, But they will swim and et side by side play with flys that gt in the tank some how{ by my hands LOL} while the fly is still alive they chase it like a football all over the tank. They like all betta fry cn all be kept togeather for long period of time. Without a single fight ,fin nipping. But remove one betta male or female from the tank. Spin around two times and replace it in the tank. Not just one or two of the fry will attack it. But the whole tank will see it as a trate to the tank nd attack it to the point of killing it.
Now the funny part is you would thank the males would be the one to attack frist out of the group. But the fact is the females are the frist to attack the so called "New comer" . Also the fish that where removed from the tank both male and a femle. The male was less aggrasive to the group as the females where. The female is the frist to attack anything in the tank. The males are less likly to attack anything antil the female does. Once the female makes her move and does the frist attack then the males will move on the introder.
One other thing I have found to be really weird with spawning pr's. If you get a pr that won't bred try what I call the kids way. My 11yr old daughter noticed this in her breding program of delta's and half moons. Once I seen it I tryed it with half moon palkat's and crown tails and even my double tails. Her way I call the " my daughter way or Lana's stage" Mostly the lost Lana;s stage. When I have a male that will not build nest or if he has one but isn't trying anything to get the female to spawn. I tke the male from the tank leving the bubble nest in tact as must as posable with as little damage as I can to it.
I place the female in the tank with the nest andfed blood worms. Then as soon as she has ate I take and replace the male in the tank.For some reason. The fact that the female has ate or the nest is there nd the females there. I have no clue as to why it works, But the male will start spawning with the female right away and showing off to her. I have never found out way this works. But ever single time i have a male that will not finish his nest or chase the female. I remove place female in the tank, add male and pop eggs 2 hrs later.
I have had a crown tail pr pop out 800+ eggs at a single time like this.

Oh yea I got new male tonight while looking for a canster filter for Mark the boy I'm helping with getting a tank up. I traded 25male vails and 20 female vail and 20 crown tail females. To help with the filter midum for the filter. I seen this guy in the very back of the shelf tryng to get to another male not 10ft away. LOL I had to have him. So now I have to find a green female double tail to go with him

 

[hc8719]

I was more upset with joannde-- Dogging me for my gramer and spelling.

actually weasel, joande was not accusing you of bad grammer, if anything, appreciated both of your opinions, i think you've mistaken her for someone else

 

[joannde]

Quote Weasel F: "I was more upset with joannde-- Dogging me for my gramer and spelling. "
* Weasel, hc is correct (thank you for pointing that out hc, appreciate it) - it wasn't me at all. In fact I pointed that there is no reason for you to have to apologize or explain.

Quote: HannahJ: "even domestic bettas won't kill each other if provided an out".
* Interesting, I hadn't know that. But like you, wouldn't advocate it. And like you I had a betta jump a divider. My heart STOPPED seeing them in the same compartment. They however didn't seem to care - like yours they were ignoring each other. Each of my bettas in the divided tank also has a hidey-hole (handmade ceramic cave) that they can go in case flaring ever gets out of hand. Glad to know I've done that right !

Weasel - your bettas are amazing ! Simply beautiful ! And your new addition is simply stunning; I hope you're able to find a female for him soon. I've been to your website and don't see very many of your betta's offered for sale to the public. If you ever have fry from the green double tail I'd be first in line to want one ! I also love the first crowntail (full mask) that you posted a photo of. You obviously kow what you're doing. If you would ever sell to the public or through AA please be sure to keep me in mind.

 

[Dr Grant]

You should attack other peoples grammer as a sign of intelligence, people can come from different backgrounds, vernaculars, other countries, or maybe english isn't there first language. Whatever the case is it's not right and an elitist POV.

 

[Guest]

I'm sorry joannade, I totally put down the wrong name when i was suppost to put in Tostada. i was putting in your name to answer a question. I must of spaced out and just typed your name. I'm sorry. Man talk about a blond moment or brain fart. I just wasn't looking at whos name I typrd and just went to town. sorry again.