Betta lost more fin since last month

[dragon14]

@SuomiBetta
So why would the insert in the api test and multiple things I've read online, including on this site, say that under 20ppm of nitrate is fine then? Actually the insert says under 40 but I think that's too high.

I love fish but yeesh maybe this will be it for me after them. This is just ugh. I don't want to hurt him and I don't want to screw up any little lives that depend on me!

 

[Matt68005]

Sumoi you seem to know alot too, but this is finrot both kinds Fungal fin rot on fish - Yahoo Search Results

Sorry for the huge link i hope it works.
You seem to know alot about nitrates, so your telling me that MORE benifical bacteria will LOWER nitrates? im confused, i always thought that high nitrates meant the cycle was complete and there was too much BB? I could be wrong, but nitrates im sure are not THAT bad as long as their under 40ppm or so. just curious. I don't pay alot of attention to water quality other than its not too high not too low amount of BB.

 

[SuomiBetta]

It's a matter of which strains of bacteria eat what. The reason a lot of sources say leave nitrate and nitrite is for plants. They use both as their sources of nitrogen. If you're like me and have no live plants you'll want some different strains of bacteria to eat up nitrite and nitrate. And I meant to say I haven't had to treat fungal fin rot but my fin woes were usually bacteria and ammonia burns. Edit to add: low concentration of nitrate and nitrite aren't immediately toxic but they aren't exactly good. Except for plants. That's why I personally try to keep all three nitrogen readings low. And also because I have a black thumb...simply dreadful with plants!

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[dragon14]

@SuomiBetta

Oh.

So what do we do then? :/ Maybe he's not sick at all and it is just that (the nitrates)?

I don't think there's any mold in the tank? We had a lot of nasty fish food in there from our half-hearted fishless cycle we attempted but we cleaned it all, washed it out/sprayed it out (not hot, though) with water, rubbed down the decorations, and made sure nothing was visibly disgusting in the tank. Also bye bye gravel we have the sand now. I think everything was clean before we started our cycle.

My concern was possible mold in the back part of that little tank may have affected him but. Maybe that isn't even why this is happening.

I just want him better and to not lose any more fin and I hope it can grow back. If he loses more I am afraid for him what that could mean. I want healthy happy fish.
His attitude, his behavior, he's himself. None of that has ever changed. It's just his disappearing fins! :'( I am really scared for him about that!

 

[SuomiBetta]

@SuomiBetta

Oh.

So what do we do then? :/ Maybe he's not sick at all and it is just that (the nitrates)?

I don't think there's any mold in the tank? We had a lot of nasty fish food in there from our half-hearted fishless cycle we attempted but we cleaned it all, washed it out/sprayed it out (not hot, though) with water, rubbed down the decorations, and made sure nothing was visibly disgusting in the tank. Also bye bye gravel we have the sand now. I think everything was clean before we started our cycle.

My concern was possible mold in the back part of that little tank may have affected him but. Maybe that isn't even why this is happening.

I just want him better and to not lose any more fin and I hope it can grow back. If he loses more I am afraid for him what that could mean. I want healthy happy fish.
His attitude, his behavior, he's himself. None of that has ever changed. It's just his disappearing fins! :'( I am really scared for him about that!

I would try using Stress coat and Stress Zyme first. If the mold were affecting him I would think he'd be showing signs of distress. Betta fins are delicate and grow slowly. My last betta lost about a third of his tail but lived happily and was never sick until he got a growth at the base of his spine. Can you post some pics of him? If there's discoloration at edges of the fins then you definitely have rot. If not it may be a burn. Sometimes it's near impossible to get new growth but you can definitely stop fin loss. If I recall you said this was over a month? To me that seems a little slow for fungus. Perhaps Matt knows. I could be wrong. But the last dealings I had with fungus it went for the gills...yuck!

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[dragon14]

@SuomiBetta
Ok. I'll get some tomorrow.

I would think so. He seems like he always has been. He's always been curious, alert and normal acting. He always has to inspect what we do. I take a picture of his bubble nest and he swims right over I think he's lost half his tail at least.

I will post pics tomorrow of what he looked like when we got him, close to the first time we noticed the fin rot first (that was almost 2 months ago, I'll have to check the calendar), a month ago, and now.

Yes, this was about over a months time I believe. (From when we stopped the salt the second time to when I noticed more missing today).

I just don't want anymore of his tail being lost! If it doesnt' grow back at this point I think he'll be fine, but if he loses more, that would be horrible. I want him to be okay. I am in love with this fish and I want to make this fin loss stop!

I don't think he has discoloration at the edges. It's hard to tell but I really don't think he does. We have put off getting a better light because well it's expensive lol! But we have one picked out on Amazon... Right now we have the little light from the 2g rigged up onto the 10g. It does a decent job. It's just not super bright and when it is cloudy and.or dark out, forget about seeing too well in the tank.

And what about water changes? You say to keep the nitrate down. But. I am not sure how to do that. Obviously we will do water changes but. It'll be difficult to do a large change daily. Twice a week or so would be doable. We were gonna do a water change tomorrow anyway.

 

[SuomiBetta]

Ok. I'll get some tomorrow. My baby is going to make me go broke! Ack!

I would think so. He seems like he always has been. He's always been curious, alert and normal acting. He always has to inspect what we do. I take a picture of his bubble nest and he swims right over I think he's lost half his tail at least.

I will post pics tomorrow of what he looked like when we got him, close to the first time we noticed the fin rot first, a month ago, and now.

Yes, this was about over a months time I believe.

I just don't want anymore of his tail being lost! If it doesnt' grow back at this point I think he'll be fine, but if he loses more, that would be horrible. I want him to be okay. I am in love with this fish and I want to make this fin loss stop!

I don't think he has discoloration at the edges. It's hard to tell but I really don't think he does. We have put off getting a better light because well it's expensive lol! But we have one picked out on Amazon... Right now we have the little light from the 2g rigged up onto the 10g. It does a decent job. It's just not super bright and when it is cloudy and.or dark out, forget about seeing too well in the tank.

And what about water changes? You say to keep the nitrate down. But. I am not sure how to do that. Obviously we will do water changes but. It'll be difficult to do a large change daily. Twice a week or so would be doable. We were gonna do a water change tomorrow anyway.

Water changes and regular filter cartridge changes should keep it down. Also when changing filter cartridges pour a little quick start and stress zyme onto it after you rinse it under the tap. Whatever doesn't get caught up in carbon the bacteria will eat. And weekly additions of stress zyme. There's also a nifty product from Tetra called Easy Balance Plus, it too helps keep nitrates down but you need a good amount of oxygen for it to work. A bubbling ornament and good filter flow is enough. And there's always Bettafix to help encourage the fins to grow. I personally haven't seen much growth with it but it's worth trying.

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[dragon14]

Water changes and regular filter cartridge changes should keep it down. Also when changing filter cartridges pour a little quick start and stress zyme onto it after you rinse it under the tap. Whatever doesn't get caught up in carbon the bacteria will eat. And weekly additions of stress zyme. There's also a nifty product from Tetra called Easy Balance Plus, it too helps keep nitrates down but you need a good amount of oxygen for it to work. A bubbling ornament and good filter flow is enough.

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But I've read to keep the filter until it is practically falling apart because of the beneficial bacteria. Do you think there's some nitrate caught up in the filter? We weren't planning on changing it for quite a while.

"Whatever doesn't get caught up in carbon the bacteria will eat." Sorry for the dumb question, but, what do you mean by whatever doesn't get caught up? What is whatever? lol.

We have an airstone/bubbler but don't' turn it on as much as we would like to since he doesn't really seem like it.

 

[SuomiBetta]

But I've read to keep the filter until it is practically falling apart because of the beneficial bacteria. You think there's some nitrate caught up in the filter? We weren't planning on changing it for quite a while.

"Whatever doesn't get caught up in carbon the bacteria will eat." Sorry for the dumb question, but, what do you mean by whatever doesn't get caught up? What is whatever? lol.

We have an airstone/bubbler but don't' turn it on as much as we would like to since he doesn't really seem like it.

Yikes don't do that! Aside from the stench, that's just asking for a bigger badder fungus or worse resistant bacteria to grow on it. You have cultures of live bacteria to go on the filter and in the water. I usually do a change every 60 days unless the filter gets clogged and sluggish. And carbon (pardon my language) is the strumpet of the periodic table. It will bind with just about anything. Two polyatomic ions like nitrite and nitrate will get pretty stuck onto it. But whatever nitrite and nitrate that doesn't get glued to carbon will be readily devoured by the bacteria. Plus the carbon provides a home for the bacteria. As for the bubbler, try putting some of his fake plants in front of it to lessen the flow.

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[dragon14]

Yikes don't do that! Aside from the stench, that's just asking for a bigger badder fungus or worse resistant bacteria to grow on it. You have cultures of live bacteria to go on the filter and in the water. I usually do a change every 60 days unless the filter gets clogged and sluggish. And carbon (pardon my language) is the strumpet of the periodic table. It will bind with just about anything. Two polyatomic ions like nitrite and nitrate will get pretty stuck onto it. But whatever nitrite and nitrate that doesn't get glued to carbon will be readily devoured by the bacteria. Plus the carbon provides a home for the bacteria. As for the bubbler, try putting some of his fake plants in front of it to lessen the flow.

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Hmm... so much to learn! So many things I've read said to keep it as long as possible, that it is not necessary to change it very often and that it can mess up a cycled tank, causing it to re-cycle, even if just for a short time. Why do so many people say that if it isn't good to keep the filter for too long? I hate contradicting information. It confuses me and makes it so hard to know what is correct :/ ::Sigh::

Could I put the old filter in with the new one to "seed" it then for a little while? Will changing it out more often eliminate a lot of the beneficial bacteria?

The cultures of live bacteria that you mentioned ("You have cultures of live bacteria to go on the filter and in the water.")... the quickstart and the stresszyme is what you mean by that or?

We had the bubbler under a fake plant before, we just need to move it back We just don't like disturbing the water too much by plunging an arm in, but we'll fix it when we do the water change tomorrow.

 

[SuomiBetta]

Hmm... so much to learn! So many things I've read said to keep it as long as possible, that it is not necessary to change it very often and that it can mess up a cycled tank, causing it to re-cycle, even if just for a short time. Why do so many people say that if it isn't good to keep the filter for too long? I hate contradicting information. It confuses me and makes it so hard to know what is correct :/ ::Sigh::

Could I put the old filter in with the new one to "seed" it then for a little while? Will changing it out more often eliminate a lot of the beneficial bacteria?

The cultures of live bacteria that you mentioned ("You have cultures of live bacteria to go on the filter and in the water.")... the quickstart and the stresszyme is what you mean by that or?

We had the bubbler under a fake plant before, we just need to move it back We just don't like disturbing the water too much by plunging an arm in, but we'll fix it when we do the water change tomorrow.

If you can fit two cartridges in then it can't hurt. And yes. Those bottles of QuickStart and stresszyme are cultures of bacteria to replace the lost bacteria. That advice is directed at people who don't have bottles of bacteria around. And since you have a betta who don't poop as much as some fish you can stretch out cartridge changes. I did 60 days with my community tank that had platys which are adorable poop machines lol. I would probably wait somewhere around 90 days with a betta. If you can find that Easy Balance Plus that will really help simplify your tank care. It's not much help with water chemistry but it's great at keeping nitrate down. And semi useful for keeping a steady pH.

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[dragon14]

@SuomiBetta
I don't know if we can fit two in there but we'll try!

Some people say that the bacteria doesn't work very well due to shipping practices and whatever, but, the stuff I picked up is working great in the catfish tank! I guess I should have gotten the big bottles then, but I can always pick some more up later.

My betta seems to poop a lot lol but maybe that's just coz I think that and he isn't really. I saw him pooping today as a matter of fact lol! One time I saw him poop a little brownish thing just a bit smaller than the size of my pinky nail, and today and then around when we first got him, I saw a little offwhite maybe a tiny bit brownish, semi-string like poop coming from him. He is a little pooper lol!

My PH is pretty steady... every time I check it it reads 7.6 on the api hard in the regular ph test. So the Easy Balance Plus helps keep nitrates down. Does it mess up the water in any way? Does it alter the PH? I've read lots of good info about to never mess with the ph unless it is naturally, so I want to make sure this doesn't do that.

So let me get this straight:
Change the filter cartridge about every 3 months. Try to seed it with the old and squirt some QuickSTart and StressZyme onto it when there is a new cartridge. Use some Easy Balance Plus to keep nitrates down and run the bubbler when we can, and do one or two decent water changes a week to also help keep nitrates down. All the while, along with all of this, use StressCoat for him.

How will all of this affect the catfish when I add them? It'll be fine for them I think but.

How long do you think I should take to notice a difference perhaps? I realize his fins may not grow back, but I absolutely do not want him to lose any more, that would be terrible for him.

 

[SuomiBetta]

@SuomiBetta
I don't know if we can fit two in there but we'll try!

Some people say that the bacteria doesn't work very well due to shipping practices and whatever, but, the stuff I picked up is working great in the catfish tank! I guess I should have gotten the big bottles then, but I can always pick some more up later.

My betta seems to poop a lot lol but maybe that's just coz I think that and he isn't really. I saw him pooping today as a matter of fact lol! One time I saw him poop a little brownish thing just a bit smaller than the size of my pinky nail, and today and then around when we first got him, I saw a little offwhite maybe a tiny bit brownish, semi-string like poop coming from him. He is a little pooper lol!

My PH is pretty steady... every time I check it it reads 7.6 on the api hard in the regular ph test. So the Easy Balance Plus helps keep nitrates down. Does it mess up the water in any way? Does it alter the PH? I've read lots of good info about to never mess with the ph unless it is naturally, so I want to make sure this doesn't do that.

So let me get this straight:
Change the filter cartridge about every 3 months. Try to seed it with the old and squirt some QuickSTart and StressZyme onto it when there is a new cartridge. Use some Easy Balance Plus to keep nitrates down and run the bubbler when we can, and do one or two decent water changes a week to also help keep nitrates down. All the while, along with all of this, use StressCoat for him.

How will all of this affect the catfish when I add them? It'll be fine for them I think but.

How long do you think I should take to notice a difference perhaps? I realize his fins may not grow back, but I absolutely do not want him to lose any more, that would be terrible for him.

Nope it's supposed to keep everything steady while neutralizing nitrates. This will end up protecting the catfish. I think you'll see a little bit of growth and a slow down or stop in fin loss provided his fins aren't rotting. If that's the case I would get some erithromycin. That should knock out the most common fin eaters. And if you use the balance you'll need to have that bubbler on all the time. It may drop your pH by maybe 0.1 degree but it takes months for that to happen if at all. I am not sure if it was the balance or the water change that made my pH drop and I've only seen it happen once so it might have been a fluke.

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[dragon14]

Nope it's supposed to keep everything steady while neutralizing nitrates. This will end up protecting the catfish. I think you'll see a little bit of growth and a slow down or stop in fin loss provided his fins aren't rotting. If that's the case I would get some erithromycin. That should knock out the most common fin eaters. And if you use the balance you'll need to have that bubbler on all the time. It may drop your pH by maybe 0.1 degree but it takes months for that to happen if at all. I am not sure if it was the balance or the water change that made my pH drop and I've only seen it happen once so it might have been a fluke.

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Oh okay. Is there an easy way to tell if his fins are rotting? I don't think they are, but, I'll post the pics tomorrow and you can tell me what you think. Does erythromycin kill bb?

We like to only have the bubbler on when we are around and/or awake. Is it super crucial to leave it on all the time with the easy balance stuff?

If we don't use the balance, will that make it harder to control the nitrate?

So from what you're saying, you think the issues I am seeing with my betta is from nitrates? Do you think there's possibly anything in the tank that came from him (or from something unknown) that is causing this?

Do you think I should try the antibiotic and the Methylene blue at all? Or try everything you suggested first.
Like I said before, I don't want to have to replace a lot of things and cycle over. Especially if it probably isn't necessary and it's just a matter of higher nitrates.

Did you cycle your 5g for Ragnar? How do you keep the nitrates down/at 0?

Does most of the beneficial bacteria you get truly live in the filter, and if so, I completely get what you say about replacing it every 2-3 months, but, it seems a shame to get rid of so much bb.

Also, once we put the catfish in the tank, it will be pretty hard to get them out. They are such a chore to catch. I want to try to be as sure as I can be that the tank and Bubbles are ok before adding the catfish.

 

[SuomiBetta]

Oh okay. Is there an easy way to tell if his fins are rotting? I don't think they are, but, I'll post the pics tomorrow and you can tell me what you think. Does erythromycin kill bb?

We like to only have the bubbler on when we are around and/or awake. Is it super crucial to leave it on all the time with the easy balance stuff?

If we don't use the balance, will that make it harder to control the nitrate?

So from what you're saying, you think the issues I am seeing with my betta is from nitrates? Do you think there's possibly anything in the tank that came from him (or from something unknown) that is causing this?

Do you think I should try the antibiotic and the Methylene blue at all? Or try everything you suggested first.
Like I said before, I don't want to have to replace a lot of things and cycle over. Especially if it probably isn't necessary and it's just a matter of higher nitrates.

Did you cycle your 5g for Ragnar? How do you keep the nitrates down/at 0?

Does most of the beneficial bacteria you get truly live in the filter, and if so, I completely get what you say about replacing it every 2-3 months, but, it seems a shame to get rid of so much bb.

Also, once we put the catfish in the tank, it will be pretty hard to get them out. They are such a chore to catch. I want to try to be as sure as I can be that the tank and Bubbles are ok before adding the catfish.

If Bubbles brought mold with him it would be growing in the 10g. And the BB live everywhere in your tank. In the filter on the ornaments and in your sand. I think the fins is from nitrate burns especially from those tiny horrible cups! Lord knows what was in there! I had the advantage of an already cycled tank but I added quick start and stress zyme regularly for three weeks. I also did water changes, salt and used the easy balance plus. Just like I did when there were fish. I personally would only get the methylene blue if nothing else is working and his fins are still rotting. That stuff is basically a reset button. I would start with Stress Coat, Stress Zyme first. Then move on to Pimafix (it won't kill all the bacteria) and if that doesn't help get erythromycin that will kill most of the bacteria and mold without destroying your tank. Plus bacteria grow extremely quickly. You won't have much of a cycle if you readd bacteria after meds and a water change. That's what I would do. But from the sound of it I don't think he's in danger of losing all his fins.

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[dragon14]

If mold was growing in there, it would be pretty obvious wouldn't it?

We bought him almost 4 months ago now, the day he arrived at PetCo. His cup was super clean, I am pretty sure the fish guy was telling the truth when he said Bubbles got there that day. He hadn't been there more than 8-12 hours. His tail was perfect then. Even when we first noticed the pinholes, this was about a month after we got him, his tail was still almost perfect. I don't think this has anything to do with being in the cup, but, I could be wrong.

We think this fin losing business first started (again, I could be wrong) due to ammonia in the 10g after almost 2 weeks with no water change. It got to .25 ppm.

Then after treating him in the 2g, it was almost 2 weeks later, we didn't change the water for 5 days, and it got to .5ppm, and that's when his fins got worse We've been so so careful since then. Only salt treatments both times, and never more than 10 days in a row.

He's been in the cycled tank, and hence the (what I thought was low) nitrates since Sept 20th. I am not sure how rapidly his tail declined since being in the tank; I think it slowly happened start month to a month and a half ago. And like you said, it can get worse before it gets better.

That being said, does it still sound like it is from nitrate burns?

If I add easy balance, how crucial is the bubbler? I don't know if we want to run it all the time The filter we have is rated for up to a 20, and as you know, we have a 10g.

 

[SuomiBetta]

If mold was growing in there, it would be pretty obvious wouldn't it?

We bought him almost 4 months ago now, the day he arrived at PetCo. His cup was super clean, I am pretty sure the fish guy was telling the truth when he said Bubbles got there that day. He hadn't been there more than 8-12 hours. His tail was perfect then. Even when we first noticed the pinholes, this was about a month after we got him, his tail was still almost perfect. I don't think this has anything to do with being in the cup, but, I could be wrong.

We think this fin losing business first started (again, I could be wrong) due to ammonia in the 10g after almost 2 weeks with no water change. It got to .25 ppm.

Then after treating him in the 2g, it was almost 2 weeks later, we didn't change the water for 5 days, and it got to .5ppm, and that's when his fins got worse We've been so so careful since then. Only salt treatments both times, and never more than 10 days in a row.

He's been in the cycled tank, and hence the (what I thought was low) nitrates since Sept 20th. I am not sure how rapidly his tail declined since being in the tank; I think it slowly happened start month to a month and a half ago. And like you said, it can get worse before it gets better.

That being said, does it still sound like it is from nitrate burns?

If I add easy balance, how crucial is the bubbler? I don't know if we want to run it all the time The filter we have is rated for up to a 20, and as you know, we have a 10g.

Quite: I don't know what chemicals are in easy balance but the extra oxygen helps speed up the chemical reactions. With double the filtration I think you can leave it off at night. Bubbles may have arrived that day but he certainly could have peed a lot and you don't know how often his cup was changed. The additional ammonia probably didn't help either. Fish have a slime coat to help protect themselves. I think what happened was that his slime coat was overwhelmed and he started losing fin when the coat couldn't protect him. After all bettas naturally live in stagnant water so that slime is pretty strong. But stress does weaken it.

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[dragon14]

Quite: I don't know what chemicals are in easy balance but the extra oxygen helps speed up the chemical reactions. With double the filtration I think you can leave it off at night. Bubbles may have arrived that day but he certainly could have peed a lot and you don't know how often his cup was changed. The additional ammonia probably didn't help either. Fish have a slime coat to help protect themselves. I think what happened was that his slime coat was overwhelmed and he started losing fin when the coat couldn't protect him. After all bettas naturally live in stagnant water so that slime is pretty strong. But stress does weaken it.

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Makes sense And our plan all along is to put the filter that we have in the catfish tank back on the 10g. It was there for a few days while cycling before we got the catfish. Talk about filtering!

Alright, so tomorrow I will get the stresscoat and I already have some stress zyme. I'll test all his water tests before changing the water and we'll change the water, then I'll add all those things. How long do you say I should add stresscoat and zyme? A week or two or how long do you think? If no changes, then pimafix? Or just add pimafix anyway with those two items?

If no joy, erythomycin? I don't want to expose the catfish for no reason if they are in there if I have to try erythomycin.

I was hoping the catfish would be in there in a couple weeks, and I don't want to overexpose them, especially since they should have half doses. Or should I keep them out until I am pretty sure I am done treating Bubbles? (Just not sure how long they'll be ok in the 5g. They're tiny, about a half inch, so they'll probably be fine for a while but not sure).

 

[SuomiBetta]

Makes sense And our plan all along is to put the filter that we have in the catfish tank back on the 10g. It was there for a few days while cycling before we got the catfish. Talk about filtering!

Alright, so tomorrow I will get the stresscoat and I already have some stress zyme. I'll test all his water tests before changing the water and we'll change the water, then I'll add all those things. How long do you say I should add stresscoat and zyme? A week or two or how long do you think? If no changes, then pimafix? Or just add pimafix anyway with those two items?

If no joy, erythomycin? I don't want to expose the catfish for no reason if they are in there if I have to try erythomycin.

I was hoping the catfish would be in there in a couple weeks, and I don't want to overexpose them, especially since they should have half doses. Or should I keep them out until I am pretty sure I am done treating Bubbles? (Just not sure how long they'll be ok in the 5g. They're tiny, about a half inch, so they'll probably be fine for a while but not sure).

I'd add in Pimafix. The Stress Zyme should only go in twice a week, you dont want a bacterial bloom. The Stress Coat goes in every day at twice the dose. The Easy Balance goes in once a week as regular care. I wouldn't add the catfish until you're sure everybody's healthy. Otherwise yep, you've got it. I'd wait three weeks and take pictures to check his fins. It's the best way to keep track. If he hasn't responded then go get that erythromycin.

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[Angela1108]

Nitrate will never leave on its own- more Bb won't get rid of it. Water changes will thought. 10 is not too bad but considering the fish is sick I would try and lower it. Non planted 5 is pretty good. If you have plants a little bit more is better because the plants will use it


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