Fish for Self-Sustaining Planted Tank?

[becrac16]

Hello there,

I'm new to the forum and have some questions about starting up a self-sustaining 55 gallon planted tank. I have started on it but have no fish in there just yet, I have been waiting on some driftwood to leech all its tannis (OMG takes forever) and waiting to see if the kinds of plants I got will work out. I've added some pics of what I have in there so far.

I have some substrate down as a first layer and then gravel over it. I'm wondering what kinds of fish will go well in this tank, the biggest thing about it is that I don't want to have to vacuum the gravel. Water changes are ok, but I'm a pretty lazy person and vacuuming gravel is not my favorite thing to do.

I was thinking of doing a school of 6 rummynose tetras and some bottom dwellers, but I don't know what kind. Would Corys be ok in there? I heard that they like sand but honestly there is no freshwater aquarium sand to be found in my town. I also have about 8 baby snails in there, they must have piggy backed on one of the plants. Anyway, any advice would be great!

 

[Ilikefishes]

You're going to have to vacuum gravel at least once a month when you add fish and other animals, or else the bioload build up on the bottom will gather up and not only be ugly to the eyes, it will effect the water quality. Generally, if you are a lazy person, this hobby is not at all for you. It's a lot of work, fish are some of the most complicated pets out there.

The fish you've chosen are perfect candidates for your tank, but the snails I personally would get rid of, they might eat your plants, and they will reproduce like crazy since they are always depending on the species, hermaphrodites.

I'd recommend Neon Tetras, they look splendid in planted tanks with lots of red and green stem plants. Cory cats are excellent bottom dwelling fish because they will eat most uneaten foods on the bottom. Keep 6 or more. And maybe a clown loach or two for those snails. Maybe if your daring to try it, a baby dwarf puffer for those snails as well. I would definitely pick up some Siamese Algae Eaters and Otocinclus Catfish for hair algae and beard algae if you're not planning to do any Co2. I recommend a Yeast System/DIY if you don't want to get involved in Pressurized, which is best. Co2 is a must have, even just a little bit will help.

Anyway that's my piece.
Good Luck!

 

[JohnPaul]

If you don't want to vacuum gravel, then you cannot use gravel. Any gravel that is not vacuumed is going to build up waste, become a breeding ground for bacteria, cause all kinds of water issues and probably eventually kill off your corys who are going to be spending all day every day rooting around in a decaying, poopy bacterial mess.

The only way you could potentially get away without gravel vacuuming is to use sand as a substrate (get pool filter sand from your local Home Depot etc.) and have a super heavily planted tank where the substrate is completely covered from one end to another, front to back, with a groundcover type of plant. And have a very low bioload of fish. And probably some MTS (Malaysian Trumpet Snails) to keep the sand turned over and any fish waste that drops can get turned over into the sand where it will decompose and feed all the plant roots that are there.

Of course, to get that kind of ground cover growth you probably need to have very high light (3 WPG or more), a pressured CO2 injection system, and be rigorous about a regular schedule of dosing of both macro and micro ferts.

Compared to all that, taking a whopping 10 minutes twice a month to vacuum the gravel doesn't sound all that bad, does it?

 

[Jason7894561230]

Yeah agreed

Neons are extremly weak and will die very easily to amonnia poisioning. But for the rummynoses they are stronger than the neons and like planted aquariums quite alot. But for a 55 gal you could put 10 in there. Also dwarf gouramis are great. They are a non aggresive fish and love being in with fish that are like too.
For the bottoms again Ilikefishes has given excellent advice for this. Cory cats are just the sweetest little things and love eating all the things that the others dont. For what kind there are alot. My personal faves are bronze, emerald, Julli, peppered and panda. All adorable. But do like sand so what you can do is build a sand box. For the corys just plonk it at the back and leave it for the corys.
But i would leave the snails because some snails are great at cleaning up. But if they do start to eat your plants you could put a clown loach in there. But just be aware they are a fish that school an they eat you plants. Well they more pock holes in them so i wouldnt really recommend them because of the size they can get to. So for the snails you could put a puffer in there they will keep the population of snails down

Well thats me
Have fun

 

[becrac16]

Thanks for the replies! I guess I will succumb to vacuuming gravel, once a month isn't bad. I just hated it when I had koi in my 55 gal (bad idea...long story-they're in a pond now) and the tank needed to be vacuumed twice a week. NOT FUN. I would do the sand thing but I would like to stick to my natural lighting and I've already spent a good amount of money on the tank already

So corys would be ok in gravel? Is the sand box idea a good one? I do really like corys. Do I need to have all of them be of the same type or could I do 3 and 3 of say, emerald and panda?

If I got corys, would I have to get oto cats to keep down the algae too?

I've also been thinking about adding some shrimp to the mix....There's a cool blue one at the fish store right now.

Could I keep two types of schooling fish? Or just stick to one?

Also, what is a yeast system?

 

[mudraker]

You might want to start over and tell us what your test kit readings are, what kind of filtration and lighting you have, what if any plants you have put in there, and what your tap water ph is vs your aquarium ph.

Any advice you get without the giver having your water and aquarium parameters may not fit your situation properly.

Let us know what your test readings are and what kind of lighting you have and what plants you have.

 

[Jason7894561230]

Corys will be fine in a group of 3-6 or so and you could get 6 of each!

Yes you can two types of schooling fish (neons rummynoses)

Build a sandbox its worth it!

Yes you could keep shrimp in there as long as there is plenty of hiding spots

You can get an otto or 2 they are great fish

You can get a dwarf gouarmi!

 

[becrac16]

I'm not sure what my readings are, but my filter is an aqueon 55 and my lighting is just natural through my living room window.

Tap water around here is pretty hard, I'm not sure exactly what reading it is but I am also adding some driftwood at some point in hopes that that will bring down the pH to a less extreme level. Does it have to leech its tannis into the tank to do that?

The plants I have in there now are 3 anubius, one type of sword (that I am taking out for insufficient lighting) 2 cryptocorn, one moss ball and one other type of plant that has striped green and white leaves. That one is doing great and I will definitely be adding more of those in there. I also have some baby tears that are on a rock but those are not doing as well either.

 

[Fishguy2727]

What substrate do you have under the gravel?

I would be surprised if the light coming from outside is enough to sustain almost any plants. I would add more light. A double HO T5 fixture would be great for growing low light plants.

A truly balanced and self-sustaining aquarium is almost impossible to do, even biologists and ecologists would be hard-pressed to get something close. Chemically it probably won't work. To start with your hardness will go down. Natural processes in the tank acidify the water and plants will use KH as a source of carbon. I tried to do this in a 20long and within two months the hardness went from rock hard to undetectable. Along with KH goes pH. When the KH dropped in that 20long the pH was under 6.0. Even if you start with abnormally high KH it will disappear fast.

Many fish give off growth inhibiting hormones. As these build up in the aquarium they stunt these fish (this is why in a group of angelfish you will usually have a dominant pair and the others will usually be visibly smaller). Without a healthy water change schedule these (as well as other bad things like dissolved organics) will build up to problematic levels.

Nitrate will do the same. If the plants thrive well enough they may keep nitrate low, but the other aforementioned chemical problems will still be there. In most tanks those other things correlate well with nitrate, so if the nitrate is high they usually will be too. But if you have plants removing the nitrate and not those other chemical problems you have no way of truly testing your water quality.

Plants need certain nutrients and they will quickly go through whatever they have. Whether it is in the substrate or in the water they need lots of things added on a very frequent basis. This is the opposite of self-sustaining.

People have noted that neon tetras and other fish are sensitive and that certain other fish will do better. Well they will do better, but they will still suffer. Instead of dying quickly though the way neons will, they will be hardy enough to not show signs of it until long term. When they die at five years old instead of ten, that is a sign. This is hard for many people to understand since they seem okay from outward appearances, but if it bothers a sensitive fish it is bothering hardier fish, just in ways you can't see by glancing at them. Just because they are not dying or developing visible illnesses doesn't mean their livers are healthy, their kidneys are not being overworked, or that all their organs are getting all the micronutrients they need.

It would also be hard to get a food source growing in there. Self-sustaining would include food, unless that is not what you really meant. If you wanted a self-feeding tank you would need lots of plants growing for quite a while before ever adding any fish. This would give all those little critters time to grow (like letting live rock run for a while in a reef tank before adding fish). You would also want to keep any fish to an absolute minimum. Ideally a school of microrasboras (something like galaxy rasboras/celestial pearal danios and other 1" max fish) would be ideal. For cleanup you would want to stick with the smallest bioload possible, so you would want to rely on shrimp and snails, not fish. Even in this situation I would still feed a high quality food.

I would go with all sand in any tank, but if you don't like to vacuum then you need to try sand. I used it on one tank I thought I was goiong to put rays in. The rays never happened but that tank became so easy to clean that within a few months I had switched all my tanks over to sand and never looked back. I think in ten years gravel will be looked at like under gravel filters, old school, out of date, unnatural, and the only people still using it are the old schoolers too stubborn to use new techniques and technology.

I hope this shows how difficult a truly self-sustaining aquarium of any type is. You can be smart and design the setup to be low maintenance and for that maintenance to be as easy as possible, but self-sustaining is out of the picture in my opinion.

 

[brimac41]

Those of us that prefer gravel (in ten years) will be not stubborn old schoolers . I do not like the look of sand , plain and simple , so I use natural gravel . It has nothing do with something being easier (or harder) or too stubborn to use "new techniques" , It is MY aquarium and I use what is pleasing to my eye , so if I am still alive and kicking ten years from now I will still have gravel as my substrate .

 

[becrac16]

Fishguy, thanks for your reply but I'm not quite sure what to do with all of that information. Was It to prove the point that a self sustaining tank is not possible? If So, then I apologize for my misuse of the word. I was looking for more of a self.cleaning tank but after all this advice i think I have switched my stance into just a low maintenance tank.

I'm not sure of the brand of substrate that is in there, but it was black and coarse. I'm really going to try and use this natural light as my only source of light, the low light plant seem to be doing fine and one its sprouting new leaves like nobody's business. I also want to keep the cost down as much as possible.

 

[mudraker]

As long as you keep truly low light plants, they will probably to okay. You will probably want some MTS to help keep the substrate clean though.

How do you know you have too high of ph without a test kit?

You will do you and your tank a huge favor by getting a liquid test kit.

Fresh driftwood will leach tannins into the water, reducing the ph level. Once the tannins have leached out though, the ph will return to what the tap water level is unless you change the water chemistry in other ways.

The ph level you maintain should be determined by the needs of your fish.

If the driftwood bringing the ph down too low, you can soak it in tap water in a bucket or whatever you have it will fit in. You'll need to change the water every few days. Again, you'll need a test kit to know for sure. Even after the water is clear, tannins can still be present.

With lowlight plants you can also get away with a plain gravel substrate, no problem.

You are correct in getting rid of the baby tears, they have high light requirements and really need co2 to grow well.

Your overall plan is very doable and will be easy to maintain with the addition of a test kit and only low light plants, and the additon of MTS.

 

[becrac16]

The approximate pH level i got from my city's website. I'm not sure of the exact numbers though. I will find those out as soon as possible. With The driftwood though, I don't want it to to turn my tank a brown color, which is what it is doing to the water i have been boiling out in. But i probably still want the pH lowering effects...

What is MTS?

 

[becrac16]

Ah, Malaysian trumpet snail. I think for algae cleaning I will get a oto cat. Those are more popular around here, I don't think my local fish store has MTS readily available.

 

[Fishguy2727]

Self cleaning and low maintenance are a different and better story. In that case you will want either cories and/or loaches to clean up extra food. For algae you will want bristlenose plecos. They stay small (around 5"), don't care if the water is super soft or super hard, don't care if it is 72F or 86F, and will eat almost any kind of algae. They are also good about NOT bothering fish (many/most plecos will suck on fish if they get a chance, discus and fancy goldfish are particularly susecptible).

Sand will definitely be your better option for a cleaner and maintenance free substrate. I use and recommend Estes' Marine Sand Ultra Reef. It is not a true marine sand since it is silica based (but it does have a polymer coating to prevent that silica from causing brown algae problems). It is very uniform in size and comes in many colors. I prefer black and white mixed or all black (I always use a painted black background). Combined the substrate and background show off the fish very well. There are pictures in my photobucket albums if you want to see examples (link in signature).

Other than that feed a high quality food since they have less fillers. This means the fish digest more and produce less waste.

Then it is just a healthy water change schedule and your fish should be happy and healthy and you can spend time enjoying them and not cleaning up after them.

 

[becrac16]

High quality food is a very good idea. I didn't think of that (or at least how that would affect my tank!). I am going to stick with the gravel as a substrate though.

I am definitely going for probably 6 cories and either otos or that pleco for algae, and then two schools of fish. I'm not sure what kind though, since I don't have my pH reading yet. Does Petco do free pH readings?

 

[mudraker]

If Petco won't do it, find a LFS that will. Have your water tested for everything while you are at it, so you can find out where you are in the cycling process and get that test kit as soon as you can.

It will save you (and your fish) a lot of grief in the future.

 

[Ilikefishes]

It sounds like you're getting on the right track, I'm sure you will have a great tank going. Get pics soon. We love them.

 

[mudraker]

I'm a big fan of low light tanks myself. You don't have to do co2 and expensive setups to have a nice looking tank. Congrats to Becrac, you are on your way!

 

[becrac16]

Woo! But I will feel a lot better once I have those test kit readings and I can narrow down my choices of fish. So I also have a few more questions...

What kinds of algae eaters do you guys like the best? I've heard oto cats, bristlenose pleco and siamese algae eaters.

Also, how would I go about adding these fish? Is there a special order to it?