From small pond to aquarium

[snowdrop7]

I 'inherited' a small pond with about 8 small goldfish. It is in a terrible state and needs a complete overhaul, which I plan to do next spring. In the meantime I'm setting up a 29 gallon aquarium to move them to for the winter. Would any of you have a good technique for catching the fish without stressing them too much? They have been coming up regularly for feeding but it has suddenly turned cold and they are at the bottom now. I do plan to put some pond water in the aquarium to begin with but it will inevitably be warmer as it will have cycled for a day or two... 'Yikes', as a friend commented, this is tricky but I really don't know how they are surviving in such a dirty and rotting plant environment... any suggestions will be most welcome.

 

[glassbird]

It would be helpful to know what temp the pond is at now, the size of the fish, and where you live...

I have gone through this with my pond fish every winter for the last 6 years. I try to bring them in before it gets really cold here, usually in mid-October. My suggestion would be to do it slowly. Catch them first, and put them in a "dedicated-fish-only" bucket (clean, used only for fish, no soap or chemicals ever used in the bucket), half-filled with pond water. Depending on their size you may need two buckets for this. Set the bucket(s) inside your house in a quiet spot, with a loose lid or a towel over the top. Add an air pump and air stone, if you can. Then bring in water from their pond to fill the 29 gallon. Do not add any "new" water at this point. It will look like heck, but it is what they are used to. Set up your filter and let it run for half an hour. (Does the pond have a filter? Find a way to add some of the used filter material to your indoor filter. The good bio-bugs in the used filter material help with the cycle.) Make sure the bucket with the fish is in the same temperature zone in your house, so that the fish and the tank are changing temps at about the same rate. Put the fish in the tank, gently.

Yes, the tank is technically un-cycled at this point. But the water parameters and the temp should be the same, and stress from the actual move should be minimal. Now the work begins! Get yourself a good test kit (not strips!) before you bring them in, and then test daily for ammonia, pH, nitrite and nitrate.

Be prepared to do lots of water changes, probably daily, until you get through the cycle. This is NOT the ideal way to cycle a tank, but the longer you leave them outside, the colder they will be, and the more the temperature change will stress them. Use Prime as a water conditioner. It will help neutralize some of the ammonia.

I do not know where you live so I can only tell you how I do it here. If you live in a place that is not as cold as New England, you might try a less drastic method and bring in just one or two in the same way as above. Once a week, bring in one more fish if your water quality is good. But if you do it this way, be sure to acclimate the new fish to the better water in the tank slowly. Keep them in the bucket, add a cup of tank water every 15 minutes, etc.

There may be other ways to do this, and hopefully someone else will jump in. This is the method that I have used. Just be sure to test daily and do not get behind on the water changes. By the way, start saving up for a larger container for next winter! They will outgrow a 29 gallon tank fast...assuming they are not too big already! (I now use a 100 gallon Rubbermaid stock tank in the basement.)

 

[snowdrop7]

Glassbird THANKS
...for taking the time to write at such length. Tremendous advice from a seasoned pond to aquarium expert! I live in Nevada and it's just a guess that the pond is about 40 degrees or a little more. The fish are still small: 1" or less (about 8 of them). There was no filtering. that's why it looks awful. How they survive, I don't know... I'll study your advice carefully and try to implement. Again, thank you so much. I'll post my results.

 

[glassbird]

You're welcome! Get a thermometer and test the temp of the pond. It really would be better to bring a few in at a time, which you could do if the water was 50 to 60 degrees. If it really is at 40, bring them in. But from that low a temp, you really need to find a way to let the temp in the bucket come up even more slowly. Find a place in your house where the temp is somewhere between the temp outside and the temp inside...a porch or basement, maybe? Use two buckets if you can, and fill them 3/4s full. Put a loose lid or towel over top to minimize stress and prevent jumping out! Let them sit there for a few hours, maybe even overnight, and definitely add a pump and air stone. Then move them into your house and let the temp rise again. Do it in stages. Do not feed them during this time. They wont be able to digest anything anyway, at that temp. And don't be in a hurry to feed them when they are in...nothing good happens fast in an aquarium!

If the pond has gravel on the bottom, bag up some of that in a new nylon sock, or even better a mesh bag from an aquarium store. Lay it on the bottom of the tank. There might be enough bio-bugs there to help the cycle. Just rinse it in the pond to get most of the crud out of it first.

I will be watching for updates...pics are good, too!

 

[snowdrop7]

Glassbird, I just replied to your good and kind post and thinking that the icon 'report post' was to let you know, I clicked it and everything disappeared! Sorry about that and here I go again with many grateful thanks. Anyway the temp in the pond is 48 degrees today, was 55 yesterday but will be cold this weekend. Your comments about temperatures make complete sense to me. In the house it is from 60 to 70 degrees.Tomorrow I will fill the aquarium 75% (as I've been advised) with filtered pond water (UGH) and the rest dechlorinated tap water, then I'll cycle it for at least 24 hours. Probably have to do frequent water changes to get the water clear in the next weeks? Then hopefully I can get the fish in this weekend. Quite a challenge to catch them but 2 friends kindly offered to help. They say one can also put them in plastic bags and float them in the aquarium for a while before letting them loose . . . It is all quite daunting for a beginner, so much to learn, but it will too if both fish and I survive this trial by fire, or should I say, water? I promise some pics too. Have some African driftwood, some silk and 3 live plants to decorate with and a nice backgound that will hide power filters etc. thank you again, I will keep you posted and again so sorry for clicking on the wrong icon. I will tell admin of my mistake.

 

[glassbird]

Sounds like a plan!

Keep in mind that letting a tank run for 24 hours really is not "cycling" in the sense that many people here use the word...a "cycle" here refers to the development of the beneficial bacteria (mostly in the filter and gravel) that converts fish waste into (eventually) non-toxic products. If you are not already VERY familiar with the whole ammonia-into-nitrite-into-nitrate process, read up on it now! Lots of info on that here!

There is no harm it letting the tank run for 24 hours, if you want to do it. You will at least get a chance to find out if anything is leaking before the fish come in...always a bonus in my book! But the tank will then be warmer than the water outside, so keep in mind my earlier suggestions for taking it slowly.

Yes, bags are an option. But I think they are a pain in the butt, especially if you are doing it slowly. You only want maybe two fish per bag max (or waste toxins will build up too fast), and you need to make sure the bags do not tip over and release the fish before you are ready, etc. AND you need to be absolutely sure the bags have nothing on the outside that could contaminate the tank. Dedicated fish buckets are so much easier, and less mess.

Do not put any more than 25% new water in the tank to start with. No need to shock the fish with a whole new house, temp changes, AND changed water parameters! Add the tank water to the bucket or bags one cup at a time, so they can get used to the fresh stuff as well as the temp change.

Below is a pic of the 29 gallon tank that I started in my living room this year. I had not planned on doing it this way, this time. My pond fish went right into their 100 gallon Rubbermaid tub in the basement, but when I went to drain another pond (not the one with my pond fish) I discovered that I had 23 baby fish that I did not know even existed. They apparently arrived as eggs on a water plant that I bought. SO...in they came, and I started them with 100% of the water they were hatched in. Multiple water changes over the next few weeks while it cycled eventually improved the appearance! The babies really are in the tank...but it's so murky you can only see one near the back!

Three months later, same tank. Babies are bigger, water is clear!

 

[snowdrop7]

Thank you thank you for all the advice, the wonderful pics, your own adventures with the 23 unexpected babies!!! But you seem quite up to the challenge Anyway I've been without a computer for nearly a week, so have not been able to keep up the conversation. This one is still not mine, but it works! I've rescued all the fish in 2 harrowing days, 4 11/2" and 5 little ones, so my 29 gallon tank is only just enough space, from what I've learned. I do have a wonderful aquaclear filter and an air stone, one live plant, 2 silk, but 2 live are coming, and I'm just amazed at how clear the water is (3/4 pond and the rest tap). I'm also amazed a how well they seem to be adapting and enjoying their new home . . . from darkness to light! I'm still at somewhat of a loss as to how much to feed them (they are eating) and whether the big boys will get it all at the little guy's expense. Also how to really test the water (I have strips) but that may not be adequate. I will do water changes each week at this time, hoping not to stress them. I also hope the dirty algae filled plants I took out of the pond had no eggs . . . But these guys really are swimming away happily, seemingly not affected by a traumatic move . . . Really a joy to see, and when the weather is cold and stormy I'm so happy they are inside. I will take a picture and add it next time. Thanks again for all. Alsl the info about cycling. My! What are you going to do with the babies???

 

[glassbird]

I will be keeping 11 of the babies, and the rest will go to a friends house in the spring. She has an enormous water feature, and has plenty of room for some new fish. It's sort of ironic...she was the person who gave me a water plant 6 years ago for my first pond...back when I just wanted a pond with no fish. Her gift plant had eggs stuck to it, and here I am housing the 9 babies from that batch in a 100 gallon Rubbermaid stock tank in my basement during the winters. They have a 250 gallon pond in front of my house for warmer weather and this last summer I added another 300 gallon pond and a waterfall. It's only right that she take a few babies back!

I hate to break it to you, but a water change once a week will not be enough. In time, once the tank has developed its beneficial bacteria (mostly in the filter), you may be able to cut back to once a week. But right now, you do not have the good bacteria. The fish are excreting into the water, and the wastes will cause the ammonia level to rise, fast. The live plants may in fact make the problem worse. IF you have a plant light on the tank, they may survive and eventually be of some benefit. But if not, they will be slowly dieing and adding even more waste to the problem. The algae that came in on the plants will also rot and add more waste, and the food you are feeding will add ammonia if it is not eaten as well! When I brought in the babies that are currently in my 29 gallon tank they were very small, all less than 1/2 an inch. I put the 5 largest into my 75 gallon tank to try to lower the load, but still with 18 tiny fish the ammonia shot right up. I used filter material from an established tank (with good bacteria) and STILL had to do daily water changes (50%) to keep the ammonia levels low enough to prevent harm to the fish. Three months later, the fish are MUCH bigger but the ammonia level is zero (with once a week water changes) because the good bacteria has developed.

Test strips are infamous for being wildly inaccurate. Get an API Master test kit if you can, or at the very least drop-type test kits for ammonia and pH. Keep track of your results in a notebook. The history of the cycle will be handy if problems arise, and it's comforting to see the numbers settle down as the good bacteria develops. And don't be fooled by the fish "looking ok". They will look ok right up to the moment they look bad! And then it's a frantic scurry to get the situation back under control, with sick or dead fish. I have been there...and do not want to EVER be there again!

Water changes are your best friend. Just use a de-chlorinator (I like Prime) and keep the water temp as close as you can. This will be much less stressful than living in a toxic soup...

CT (looking forward to pictures!)

 

[snowdrop7]

Many thanks again, Glassbird, for all the info. I'm learning so much. This cycling thing is getting me worried. It all makes sense. I went to the pet store looking for the API master test kit you recommended and the guy tells me 'not to worry, they'll be fine and the test would not come out right as I have partly pond water in the tank.'!!! He just said to do water changes 'in a month'! Leaves me somewhat confused . . . I do believe you are right though and will do water changes starting tomorrow. The fish have been in the aquarium for 5 days. The water still looks very clear (surprisingly), but I won't trust it. Should I also vacuum? Have an Eheim. I'm afraid I'll scare them to death they are so used to dark and quiet, though they seem to love visits! Well this is quite a challenge Pictures will be coming if I can manage it with this unfamiliar computer.

 

[glassbird]

Wow.

I have been sitting here for several minutes trying to make sense of the fish store guys statement...and I give up.

He either completely misunderstands the situation that you are in, or is a complete...complete...I am struggling for a polite way to say this... moron?

He said that "the test would not come out right as you have partly pond water in the tank"?? What? The fish are in that water, where it came from is irrelevant. The parameters of the water are what they are, and are affecting the fish, for good or bad. I can't make any sense of that statement at all!

A water change in a month? WHAT? (I really am trying to stay calm, seriously.) I have a 75 gallon tank that has been cycled and running continuously for 5 years with 3 fancy goldfish (under 2 inches each) and 5 small baby pond fish. It has a large external filter, AND an undergravel filter (with two power heads and 2 inches of gravel)...and I would MAYBE let that tank go without a water change for a month IF I had the FLU and was too sick to do it!

I cannot fathom his thinking. You were ready to make a purchase...test kit, and hopefully a dechlorinator. And he basically blew you off, and gave you information that is just plain wrong. Maybe he is new, or hates goldfish...I do not know. Did he even offer to test your water for you? Some shops will do it free, if you bring in a fresh sample in a clean jar. (ALWAYS get the actual numbers if you do this. Do not let them just tell you it is "fine".)

Time to move on to the next subject and let my blood pressure settle down! Vacuum? Do you have gravel of some sort in there? Is it from the pond? If so, did you rinse it in the pond water, or tap water before putting it in? How deep is it? You have an Eheim...is that an Eheim filter or the Eheim "sludge extractor". Whether or not to vacuum will depend on this info, but for now just do a water change and we can discuss vacuuming tomorrow.

CT (yearning for test results AND pictures!!)

This is my 75 gallon last year. The small tank in the bottom left corner is the same tank that I showed you earlier that is filled THIS year with surprise babies. Last year it contained (temporarily) my pond fish while I searched for a 100 gallon Rubbermaid tub to house them. As you can tell by the pic, they had had a huge growth spurt over the summer and were simply too large to survive in that tank for another winter! Daily water changes kept them alive and healthy for several weeks until I could get them moved into the tub.

 

[snowdrop7]

Glassbird, I really don't want you to have a heart attack! But thank you again. I really was surprised by the nonchalance of the the 2! fish guys I consulted. Maybe they don't think goldfish are worth the trouble and one of them said: 'when one of them dies it will be time to do something about it"!!!!! Anyway to answer your questions it is an Eheim gravel vacuum I have (very expensive $60) I thought, but heck, they are worth it. I bought 2 kinds of gravel, about 2+ inches (the good kind) and washed it carefully. I also have an air stone for up 30 gallons, (they are playing with it) a light in the hood which I turn off for 12 hours at night, an Aquaclear 3 way filter for up to 50 gallons. I have Tetra AquaSafe, API Stress Zyme and Stress Coat which I have used according to instructions when setting up, and FloraPride which I haven't used yet. The live plant (also bought and washed) is still looking good. This AM I went to visit my little friends and they seemed fine, just gently swimming, and greeting me happily (I thought). The water is still very clear. I've been feeding them TeraFin crisps (hopefully not too much) and really they do seem fine at this point. But, like you say I shouldn't trust it as we are in the cycle mode. I did a strip test (know you don't think that's too reliable) but it is all I have at the moment, and all seemed to be in the 'safe' zone. How can I tell if ammonia is at dangerous levels? If I ask the aquarium guy he'll only say 'don't worry'!!!! I did see a product called AMQUEL, and am wondering if I should get that too? That's as far as I am today, the 6th day, and everyone is still alive Thank you for sharing my goldfish journey!

 

[snowdrop7]

Glassbird, forget to say how WONDERFUL your aqurium is. Just GORGEOUS!

 

[mfdrookie516]

you might want to think about using another lfs

 

[glassbird]

Well, the comment about not doing anything until one of the fish dies is really indicative of the type of person you are dealing with. I hope you have other choices of fish stores in your area. Or just go there for supplies, and do not bother asking for advice. It is a good thing to have GOOD advice from a local source...I can only help you with general stuff, like the cycle and equipment, etc. A local fish guru could help you regarding local stuff...water hardness in your area, the types of pond plants that will do well for you, etc. You may have to go to the internet for supplies. Drs. Fosters and Smith has done well by me.

Is it too late to return the Eheim vacuum? I will confess that I have never seen one in real life, but if I understand how they work they just remove some debris and then put the "cleaned" water right back into the tank? A simple gravel cleaner and a bucket would do a better job, faster, and do a partial water change at the same time...for a whole lot less money! I am talking about your basic gravel cleaning siphon...a length of wide rigid tube attached to another length of smaller flexible tube. Put the open end of the small tube in a bucket (lower than the aquarium) and the wide rigid end in the water. Either suck on the open end of the small tube to start the flow, or scoop up water in the wide rigid end and raise it up out of the tank to get the water flowing. Before the water has completely flowed out of the wide part, lower it into the tank (keeping the open end tilted UP) and the water will continue to flow into the bucket. I wish I could show you this...it takes a little practice, but it's not hard. Then put the open end of the rigid part down into the gravel, and watch the crud get sucked up and out. You can control the speed of the flow by raising or lowering the bucket. Be sure you do not suck up a fish! Vacuum about half the gravel at any one time, and do the other half next time.

I was hoping that your gravel had come from your pond, as it would then have some beneficial bacteria, but it sounds like it is new. You do not need more than an inch...some people would say even less, or none. Your filter sounds good.

I will encourage someone else to step in to help you with the live plant issue. I have made a few attempts at live plants, but goldfish are famous for ripping them up and/or eating them and mine have certainly done that. But some people do it successfully and if you have your heart set on live plants, perhaps someone can help. I do think you need some sort of special light bulb in the hood to grow plants. The light emitted by a regular fluorescent bulb is not the right type for growing plants.

I am not familiar with StressZyme, but Aqua Safe and StressCoat are both dechlorinators. I do not think that you have to use both at the same time. I used to use StressCoat but there is some concern about it coating the fish's gills and making it harder for them to breath. I think this might be more of a problem if you use too much, and I never had a problem with it that I am aware of. I switched to Prime because Prime is MUCH more economical, neutralizes some ammonia, and has no coating potential.

Food is a huge issue, and opinions vary. I like fancy goldfish in my indoor tank, and they are prone to digestive issues. I have found frozen foods do well for me, but others prefer home-made gel foods. I do not cook, so I have not attempted that! Basic comets are much less prone to digestive issues, but I would look for a goldfish food, preferably a sinking pellet. I am not familiar with the crisps...do they float? Are they specifically for cold water fish, like goldfish?

And lastly, the only way you are going to know if the ammonia is reaching problem levels is by testing with a drop-type kit. And you need to know your pH too...ammonia is more or less toxic depending on your pH! I can help you with this, but we need real readings first. Clarity of the water is not an indicator of safety. The stuff that will cause you problems, is stuff you will never see.

And you are welcome for what help I can give. I worked in a fish store years ago, and I really enjoyed helping people with their tanks. And I have learned a great deal since then, both on forums like this one and in real life, so it's nice to be able to give back a bit. This is a great hobby, but I know it can be overwhelming at first. Lots to learn. But it does get easier, once you get the right knowledge under your belt and the right equipment in hand!

CT

 

[glassbird]

One thing I forgot. Don't bother with the Amquel. It has some effect on accurate water readings, but I forget exactly what. Get the Prime, if anything. Also, do not get the "ammonia removing chips". They can also cause issues, especially if you need to add salt at some point.

And thanks for the compliment on my tank. I am proud to say that I designed and built the stand and hood myself (OK, I had a lot of help from a friend during the building part). The extra shelf on the left is a "kitty viewing station", so my cats can enjoy the fish up close. (Can you see the cat's head in the reflection right in the middle of the aquarium in that picture? It is a side view, looking to the left...)

 

[snowdrop7]

GlassBird, it's awfully late here and I have a couple pics but no idea how to attach them. They are on my hard drive. Have to read your latest post when I am fresh again. Meanwhile a 1000 thanks again for all

 

[glassbird]

I have limited experience in putting pics into a thread and I am sure there are a dozen ways to do it. The only method that works for me involves first uploading the images to Photobucket (or some other picture sharing site) and then connecting to the pic from there. I do not think you can do it directly from your computer to here...

 

[snowdrop7]

Hello there dear GlassBird, for the moment I'm going to forgo the pic until I can figire it out. I never have trouble usually. But... besides being in admiration of your beautiful tank let me say that I just love cats too. He or she must be so entertained watching the fish. Wonderful idea anyway to get back to my aquatic adventure it's been 8 days and as far as I can tell we are in full cycle mode. I have made a partial water change and vacuumed the gravel and I found the fish somewhat subdued today and hiding behind the plants, although they did come out to eat the little I dared give them. I was worried so took a water sample to yet another pet store for testing and was told that there is indeed ammonia (0.02-0.05) but again 'not to worry' as it probably would get higher before peaking. The gal advised a bacteria supplement and Novaqua+ which she said would help the fish. And indeed when I came back some hours later they were acting almost normal again. This is truly a stressful time for all of us! I don't know if I should use that stuff every day until the ammonia levels go down or not. Forgot to ask. These are the other other levels: nitrate 0, nitrite 0, hardness 150, chlorine 0 alkalinity 120 and pH 7.2-7.8. Every day I wonder if I'll find one dead in the morning! I do care. Blessings.

 

[glassbird]

Whew! I am glad to hear that you have other options for fish stores! This one provides a thorough water test, so thats a bonus. Could you recheck the figures for ammonia, though? I am wondering if you have some extra decimal places...my API test kit for ammonia shows the lowest level as .25 and I think the next step is .5 ppm. (I am writing this at work, or I would pull out my test kit and check this.) Or maybe they have an incredibly sensitive testing method?

I am not familiar with Novaqua, so I cant say anything there. But the subject of bacterial additives is an interesting one. The general consensus seems to be that the non-refrigerated types are pretty much useless, but can't hurt to try if you want. They MIGHT shorten up the cycle by a little bit, but they are no substitute for the water changes. If you have a friend with a HEALTHY cycled aquarium, you could ask for a bit of used filter material or gravel to jump start the cycle better.

If your ammonia reading as actually between .25 and .5, you are doing OK. That's about what I would expect. Your goal is to keep it no higher. I have a chart at home that specifies how toxic a certain ammonia level is at a specific pH level, but I will have to look at that when I get home. For now, keep up with daily testing, write down the results, do a water change depending on how high the ammonia level is. When I cycled the 29 gallon for the surprise babies, I did a 50% water change if the level was anywhere near .5, and a 25% if it was under .25 ppm. I did a lot of 50% changes, especially for the first 2-3 weeks! I am down to testing just once a week now, and it is always at zero but I do a 50% PWC anyway just to keep everything fresh.

Re: cats! I have two, a 9 year old boy and a 3 year old girl. And my roommate has 5! (Everyone is neutered/spayed and indoors-only.) So you would think the kitty viewing station would get a lot of use! But no...the fish are pretty much old news at this point. They do sit there sometimes, but mostly just to look out the window, not at the fish. Oh well!

 

[mfdrookie516]

GlassBird, it's awfully late here and I have a couple pics but no idea how to attach them. They are on my hard drive. Have to read your latest post when I am fresh again. Meanwhile a 1000 thanks again for all

its simple... if you go to the bottom there is a "go advanced" option... once you get there, at the top of the box for text, there is a paper clip icon you can click on (its right beside the font and smily face icon), if you hit browse, you can get the picture from your harddrive, then click upload, it will upload it, when the file path dissapears from the browse section and you have one less browse option (you will start with 4), you can hit "preview post" and it will let you see how they will look in your thread