Help with ph!

[Caliban07]

uncgirl1 -

well you wanted advice and you've got it now! lol!

I found this article on the same website (I'm loving this website's articles that are based in science and provide references!)

Aquarium Chemistry | Calcium & KH & GH & pH & Electrolytes (ions)

This one is more in depth Aquarium Chemistry. It talks in more detail about GH and KH and how it all relates.

Here is a small section of the article that I think is very relevant to your situation.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, Avant Garde]"It is also noteworthy that a GH test is not always an accurate measure of positive calcium and other mineral ions (cations), as with many Ammonia test kits, which are inaccurate after using products such as Prime and give false positive for ammonia NH3 as they cannot discern the difference between the NH3 and NH4+.
The same can be said for GH tests that may show a high GH when in reality all positive calcium ions are depleted due to Redox balancing, which is why one MUST constantly supply these mineral cations by whatever means, whether by regular water changes (which often are not enough, especially in small aquariums) or by use of mineral replenishers such as Wonder Shells (which will throw off accurate readings of GH test kits due to their constant supply of positive mineral ions such as calcium!!!).[/FONT]"

I after all my research and reviewing the comments others have provided, I am going to stick with my theory that your buffering has been depleted. Your BB and plants are both using up what little buffer you have in your soft water. I am going to stand firm on my theory that in order to have a stable pH in your aquarium with your soft water you need to do regular and large water changes to restore the buffering in your water and even then it might not be enough (see above) to maintain a stable pH. If you GH is only reading 3 and the test can be inaccurate for the calcium ions you need, I convinced that your buffer is completely depleted. I would research the Seachem line of acid and alkaline buffers and Replenish and consider increasing the buffers in your water. I think ultimately your aquarium will be more balanced and you will go through much less water.

Okay, I've said my final thoughts on this. I hope I haven't added to your confusion and I hope I may have helped in some small way. I think too many comments will only add to the confusion! All the best for you and your fish!

I wouldn't be so sure just yet. That is a lot of assumption that the op's tests are inaccurate. Not only that, the article only says that this can apply to gh and you have automatically transferred this over to kh test as well. Not to mention that this is based on one article.




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[Fresh2o]

I agree, my logic is that more surface agitation would just equal a faster gas transfer equilibrium at the surface of the water.


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True.
But if no CO2 injection is occurring and there is a CO2 debt caused by photosynthesis, wouldn't be true that CO2 would actually be absorbed into the tank water from the surrounding air to maintain equilibrium?


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[Caliban07]

True.
But if no CO2 injection is occurring and there is a CO2 debt caused by photosynthesis, wouldn't be true that CO2 would actually be absorbed into the tank water from the surrounding air to maintain equilibrium?


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I would expect any co2 absorbed in to the water column to be utilised at a rate that wouldn't impact ph. If photosynthesis was dictating the rate of co2 being absorbed I would expect photosynthesis to utilise it as quickly as it was becoming available thus a balance would still be achieved that way.




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[Delapool]

The reality is, that in a non injected tank, the more agitation, the higher the dissolved CO2 will be.

What Bill means I believe is that this is for a planted tank not using any additional co2 (injection or yeast).

Plants use the co2 in the water. More co2 comes in at the air/water interface. It then has to diffuse through the water down to the plants.

Agitating the water keeps the co2 moving to the plants. Big changes to co2 levels won't happen though, it's just delivering co2 to plants more efficiently.

So then we shift to injecting co2 which forces the co2 level higher than would naturally be the case. Here we don't want aeration/agitation as the opposite will occur (as the water can't keep that high a level of co2 naturally) with co2 lost to the atmosphere.

Edit - Bill, was that correct for you?

 

[Delapool]

I would expect any co2 absorbed in to the water column to be utilised at a rate that wouldn't impact ph. If photosynthesis was dictating the rate of co2 being absorbed I would expect photosynthesis to utilise it as quickly as it was becoming available thus a balance would still be achieved that way.

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That's what I thought (er, I think). I'm assuming plants are small so not expecting them to drive rapid ph changes, just gradual decrease over time.

I'm looking at my tank as well which is planted (somewhat) and fully stocked, and I can maintain kh most months just with water changes with a lower tap kh than OP. So we should be able to get a stable tank.

Immersed land plants might be able to do it. Not sure how quick but there was a thread where these were traced back to a severe tank ph drop.


For the OP, congrats on all the testing. Makes it so much easier to work through. Over here, we get a kh drop in summer so it is worthwhile checking kh in tap around once a month when tank is stable.

 

[uncgirl1]

Evening update: I changed 35% of the water this morning around 11:30. I tested ph immediately after and it was 7 or 7.2. I really can't tell the difference between those 2 colors on the API chart. I tested it an hour later and the ph was still the same. Tested the ph again at 9 pm. The ph is now 6.6 or 6.8. Again, these API colors are way to close to be able to tell an obvious difference. Obviously, I figured the ph would drop but I didn't expect it to happen that fast.

Does anyone think I should remove some of the plants? They aren't exactly small. There are some good size swords in there. It seems that most of the posts are all discussing co2 as the reason for the ph crashing.


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[Delapool]

Evening update: I changed 35% of the water this morning around 11:30. I tested ph immediately after and it was 7 or 7.2. I really can't tell the difference between those 2 colors on the API chart. I tested it an hour later and the ph was still the same. Tested the ph again at 9 pm. The ph is now 6.6 or 6.8. Again, these API colors are way to close to be able to tell an obvious difference. Obviously, I figured the ph would drop but I didn't expect it to happen that fast.

Does anyone think I should remove some of the plants? They aren't exactly small. There are some good size swords in there. It seems that most of the posts are all discussing co2 as the reason for the ph crashing.


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That actually sounds about right to me for the ph. See what it settles to in the morning. How are fish doing? Any hiding or clamped fins or hanging higher/lower in water than normal or not eating?

I'm going to be honest and say pulling up plants I wouldn't do as I struggle to grow them. And it would it sounds like be a big change in the tank. But see what others think.

Imo I would see what tank ph is in morning (since you have done several previous pwc's as well), see if you are getting any ph above 6 or not and go from there.

Lol - on the colour charts. I struggle with them all.

 

[uncgirl1]

That actually sounds about right to me for the ph. See what it settles to in the morning. How are fish doing? Any hiding or clamped fins or hanging higher/lower in water than normal or not eating?

I'm going to be honest and say pulling up plants I wouldn't do as I struggle to grow them. And it would it sounds like be a big change in the tank. But see what others think.

Imo I would see what tank ph is in morning (since you have done several previous pwc's as well), see if you are getting any ph above 6 or not and go from there.

Lol - on the colour charts. I struggle with them all.

The fish are doing great! No clamped fins, no weird behavior, nothing. They are swimming all over, eating, bright colors. No signs of any distress.

I don't want to take anything out. Trust me. lol I like everything the way it is. And I have Flourite. Moving anything makes a large mess! But I also want to fix the issue so I thought I'd ask.

I'll check ph in the morning and will see what I get. Thanks for all your help!


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[Delapool]

Not sure how late it is there. Did you test ammonia? Sorry, late thought.


Here is the ammonia toxicity link. It is based on average values though eg average reading of 'x' will on 'average' cause no issues. Probably safe with prime dosing but FYI.

http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f12/your-guide-to-ammonia-toxicity-159994.html


Right, now to read more through the excellent papers and links included higher up.

 

[uncgirl1]

Not sure how late it is there. Did you test ammonia? Sorry, late thought.


Here is the ammonia toxicity link. It is based on average values though eg average reading of 'x' will on 'average' cause no issues. Probably safe with prime dosing but FYI.

http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f12/your-guide-to-ammonia-toxicity-159994.html


Right, now to read more through the excellent papers and links included higher up.

I did and it shows 0. It was .25 last night and I did the water change this morning. I'll also test it again in the morning. I'm definitely reading through all the links and have read each post several times. There is SO much information that it takes my brain some time to process. And each article leads me to more questions. lol Information overload!!! Even so, I'm extremely grateful for the help from everyone who has commented and shared links or thoughts. I'm determined to figure this out. One day at a time. I'm calling it a night and will post my test results in the morning. At this point, I'll probably dream of water chemistry and fish! ?


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[Caliban07]

What Bill means I believe is that this is for a planted tank not using any additional co2 (injection or yeast).

Plants use the co2 in the water. More co2 comes in at the air/water interface. It then has to diffuse through the water down to the plants.

Agitating the water keeps the co2 moving to the plants. Big changes to co2 levels won't happen though, it's just delivering co2 to plants more efficiently.

So then we shift to injecting co2 which forces the co2 level higher than would naturally be the case. Here we don't want aeration/agitation as the opposite will occur (as the water can't keep that high a level of co2 naturally) with co2 lost to the atmosphere.

Edit - Bill, was that correct for you?

Yeah thanks dela. What I can't seem to understand here is though that if plants control the amount of co2 that that they require, why would anyone need to inject?

Also i can't see the level of co2 coming in b being anywhere near the amount require to alter the ph.


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[Caliban07]

That actually sounds about right to me for the ph. See what it settles to in the morning. How are fish doing? Any hiding or clamped fins or hanging higher/lower in water than normal or not eating?

I'm going to be honest and say pulling up plants I wouldn't do as I struggle to grow them. And it would it sounds like be a big change in the tank. But see what others think.

Imo I would see what tank ph is in morning (since you have done several previous pwc's as well), see if you are getting any ph above 6 or not and go from there.

Lol - on the colour charts. I struggle with them all.

The problem is, tap water ph settles still in the sevens. The tank only had a few cherry barbs in it. The kh according to the kit is fine.

Uncgirl could you buy some distilled water and use the gh and kh test kits on it to confirm they are not faulty?

From here on it has to be process of elimination. Something in that tank is driving ph down.




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[Delapool]

Yeah thanks dela. What I can't seem to understand here is though that if plants control the amount of co2 that that they require, why would anyone need to inject?

Also i can't see the level of co2 coming in b being anywhere near the amount require to alter the ph.


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Closest analogy I can think of is co2 injection is like a turbo on the car.

Would agree for non-injected (but not an expert). Need Bill to expand?

 

[Delapool]

The problem is, tap water ph settles still in the sevens. The tank only had a few cherry barbs in it. The kh according to the kit is fine.

Uncgirl could you buy some distilled water and use the gh and kh test kits on it to confirm they are not faulty?

From here on it has to be process of elimination. Something in that tank is driving ph down.

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Yes, idk how kh is still present at a ph of 6. In my tank, kh was 0 once ph went below ~6.8 or so.

Worth chasing up for sure. I remember thinking yesterday there is so much going on here.

 

[uncgirl1]

Yes, idk how kh is still present at a ph of 6. In my tank, kh was 0 once ph went below ~6.8 or so.

Worth chasing up for sure. I remember thinking yesterday there is so much going on here.

I agree! I just wish I knew what. Now I'm wondering why I have kh if the ph is dropping and low. Hmmm....more below.

The problem is, tap water ph settles still in the sevens. The tank only had a few cherry barbs in it. The kh according to the kit is fine.

Uncgirl could you buy some distilled water and use the gh and kh test kits on it to confirm they are not faulty?

From here on it has to be process of elimination. Something in that tank is driving ph down.



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Yes, I can buy distilled water today. I will be the first to admit it could be user error. The kh test I don't think so because bright yellow is bright yellow. But the gh, possible. How green does it need to be? Maybe I should post a video or pictures of the tests I'm doing and you guys could tell me if its right or what you think?




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[uncgirl1]

Ok. Here are pictures of the tests I did this morning. I've tested ph, kh, gh all directly out of the tank.

1st picture is of tests I'm using. They are not expired but the kh and gh are both made in 2013 so are close to being 2 years old.

2nd picture is of ph test. It looks like 6.4 to me.



3rd picture is kh test. This was 6 drops to equal 6 dkh or 107.4 ppm. It's yellow but bright yellow? I'm not sure.

4th picture is of kh but 7 drops. 7 dkh or 125.3 ppm. This is definitely bright yellow.

5th picture is gh test. This was 5 drops so 89.5 ppm. However, 4 drops turned it green as well. I read somewhere that the green should be the same green as the .25 ammonia. To get that green it took 5 drops.

I will test on distilled water later today when I get some.

Do you all see something that I don't? Are the colors off or wrong to you?


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[uncgirl1]

I addition, the low ph has definitely killed my cycle. This morning there is .5 ammonia, 0 nitrItes, and 0 nitrAtes. This is so depressing to me. I have a qt tank that is cycled to 3ppm ammonia so I can move the extra sponge to my main tank. However, I am hesitant to do so until I get this problem figured out. To keep ph up it looks like daily water changes anyway so that will take care of the ammonia as well. Ugggggg.


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[Caliban07]

I addition, the low ph has definitely killed my cycle. This morning there is .5 ammonia, 0 nitrItes, and 0 nitrAtes. This is so depressing to me. I have a qt tank that is cycled to 3ppm ammonia so I can move the extra sponge to my main tank. However, I am hesitant to do so until I get this problem figured out. To keep ph up it looks like daily water changes anyway so that will take care of the ammonia as well. Ugggggg.


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The ammonia at the ph will be non toxic. Can you remove the drift wood?

Put the flourite in the QT to see if that affects ph?


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[uncgirl1]

The ammonia at the ph will be non toxic. Can you remove the drift wood?

Put the flourite in the QT to see if that affects ph?


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Yes. Driftwood has been removed. Did you look at my test results from earlier? See anything wrong with them? Thanks for your help!


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[Caliban07]

Sorry I'm not familiar with those tests. I believe you though. Need to test the distilled water to confirm accuracy.

How long has drift wood been removed?

Is the flourite by Seachem? It claims not to alter ph but I'm just curious if this is the cause.


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