I've Jumped Over the Planted Tank fence!

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Well I just came home to a tank full of dieing fish. My CO2 was gushing out like I had both valves completely opened up. The only thing still alive are my gouramis and it looks like some swordtails might make it. I'm in shock. I don't know how this could have happened. Last night when i went to bed it was fine, 2 bps, no more no less.

I can't believe it.

About six fish's gills are still moving, should I euthanize them or might they get well?
 
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Do some quick Water Changes to get he CO2 levels down. Some of the fish may surprise you and come back around. Only remove the ones that are defiantely dead (ie no response at all).
 
I've been doing PWC's for a while, I also proped up my spraybar so lots of O2 is going into the tank. So far it is not as bad as I had originally thought.

The 3 gouramis are all fine which makes sense due to their labrynths. So are the 3 sword tails and the 6 Brilliant Rasboras (I think thats their name). Lots of other fish are still on thier sides/backs but still moving their gills, so I expect more losses. The only fish that there was absolutely no movement from were the two brichardi cichlids and my red tail shark (who was doing really really well in my tank). So it's not THAT bad but it isn't over.

I can't tell if my clown pleco is moving though the gills seem to be VERY slightly. He/she was soooo small when I got it and got so big it can't hide in the DW as much as he would like. I sure hope he/she makes it.

The high pressure guage is reading steady 800 as always. It kicked on at 1pm and I got home at 5 so it was only going for 4 hours. Still, it was shooting out of there like old faithful. I'm shocked and have absolutely NO clue what happened. Maybe I brushed the knob last night by accident, or an impercebtale clog got cleared.

Didn't this happen to you neil? I think I remember you saying it did. I only have myself to blame, you told me to use the ph controller but I wanted to get my bps accurate first. Ugh.

Still, only 3 fish definitely dead so far. Could be worse. Hey the plants look good at least!
 
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I'm very sorry, Pitt420dude. :(

The bubble rate and the pH probe/controller aren't directly related. I have (am trying!) to set my bubble rate at 1 bps - nice and slow since I don't have a fast waterflow or much current in the tank. When my solenoid kicks on, it may run, and the controller alarm may blink, for 15-20 minutes, until it reaches my set pH. That's ok because the CO2 is released nice and slow. I have seen other systems where the bubble rate is extremely quick - the solenoid only runs for a minute or so and the bubble rate is so fast you can't count it. But no matter how fast/slow the bubble rate is, the controller shuts the solenoid off at the set pH. So it won't hurt to leave the probe/controller hooked into the system while you're adjusting the bubble rate.
 
Thank you for your condolences. Every fish except the two brichardis and the one red tail shark survived.

I did know that about the controller, An T-iasg, but like you, I'd prefer a nice slow and steady release over the blitzkreig/ol' faithful CO2 injection method.

It could have been worse (and looked MUCH worse when I first got home), it just stinks that those brichardis and the shark died. I really liked the brichardis and had them for just a month. I got them and the shark on the same day and all three seemed to be doing so well. They were also my three priciest fish, or at least very near.

Part of the hobby right? It's only a mistake if I don't learn from it. Tomorrow the plants will have to go without CO2, I'm taking the day off and not even trying to run CO2 tomorrow.

Probably the most frustrating thing of it all is that I have absolutely no clue how it happned. NO friggin idea whatsoever. I don't know if I accidentally opened the knob last night or this morning or if the pressure just increased magically by itself. This makes it tough to learn from the incident, when I have no idea what caused it. I guess I learned to not even mess w/ CO2 unless I'm home. At least not until I have it down pat. I thought I did, and timed the bps sooooo many times, but I guess not.
 
Aw, I'm sorry to hear about your losses. I've been following this thread avidly and love hearing about your tank so I too was shocked when I read what happened. I'm glad the other fish seem to be doing well.
 
spilzer said:
Aw, I'm sorry to hear about your losses. I've been following this thread avidly and love hearing about your tank so I too was shocked when I read what happened. I'm glad the other fish seem to be doing well.
Click to expand...

Thanks spilzer, and thanks for showing interest and following my thread!

A thought had just occured to me:

Over the past few days I've had almost no problems with the bps. I managed to get it around 2 bps and was very happy with it over the weekend. Then I noticed that I was having a problem with my solenoid sort of leaking out co2, even after it was shut off; it wouldn't let it out nearly as fast though, maybe about 1 bps.

So to completely stop the flow at night when the timer shuts the lights and solenoid off, I closed the tank valve completely (Sunday night). Yesterday before I went to work (Monday morning), I turned the tank valve back on completely.

Do you think this might have caused the gushing CO2? Perhaps while turning the tank valve I accidentally nudged the black knob? If the black knob and needle valve stay un-touched, it shouldnt really affect the bubble rate right? The bubbles should only be able to come out so fast regardless of the tank valve correct?
 
It could be that initially the tank wasn't all the way open, then after closing it for the night and reopening it the next morning you did open it all the way. The relative pressure on the low side would change then, as would your bubble rate.
 
Thats true, I hadn't thought of that.

I did try to "blow out" the solenoid by:

(1) unpluged solenoid.
(2) took the needle valve/bubble counter off,
(3) turned the working pressure up to 30 or so, and
(4) pluged in the solenoid.

It gave a decent hiss and I unpluged/repluged three more times, then screwed the needlevalve/bubble counter back on, opened it up, then shut off the solenoid and zero bubbles seeped out. This makes me think there was something in there letting co2 seep out.

I have been messing with the needle valve tonight, and got it around 2 bps (again). When I shut the timer off, (which turns off the solenoid and lights) no bubbles seep out, but when I plug it back in the bps seems lower. Does it just take time to work back up to the correct bps?

It also seems that once, when I shut the timer off (aka turn off the solenoid) the bubble at the mouth of the bubble counter gets small. Is this pushing water back through the regulator and causing me problems? I don't think I have a faulty check valve, I just think there is back pressure there. Is this normal?
 
That may be it, but it gets smaller pretty quick, and totally disappears within a few seconds. Almost as if it's being pushed back into the regulator, maybe I do have a faulty checkvalve, but no water is coming down the tube so maybe it is just back pressure.

Another thing I've noticed is that when I turn the solenoid off, and then back on, the bps rate is much much slower (just minutes later) when I first turn it back on than it was when I just it off. Does this happen with your regulators as well?

Each time I shut the solenoid off and then turn it back on, I have to open the needle valve a little more to get the same bps. This doesnt make sense. Does it just take time to work back up to the correct bps?

EDIT: I got my drop checker! It came with "reagent"; this is nothing more than a small bottle of pH testing liquid right? It says to put 3-4 drops in, which makes no sense. Which is it three or four? I have 4 degree kH solution (thanks HG) so it should be green at 30ppm right? Also it's been over an hour and its still blue, but I heard it can take up to 3 hours to equalize so we will see.

On a positive note I didnt have an incident with the bps going haywire while I was at work today, It is about what I set it at last night still so thats good. I'm pretty sure that I either had some clogging issues or I accidentally bumped the black knob when the solenoid was off, and it just kicked back on at an amazingly high rate which is what killed those fish.
 
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I finally got my drop checker to turn green last night, but the bps has to be so high I can't count it. I also lost a gold gourami today and have no idea why, last night it seemed fine and when I got home today it was completely lifeless. Maybe I'm having kH swings but I really have no idea b/c I can't test for that all the time, which seems to be the only way to tell if it is swinging alot.

I also got my ferts from Rex Grigg today, and need to decide on pps or EI. I don't like having to do 50% water changes once a week w/ the EI method, but I am attracted to how (relatively) easy it is for beginners.

I have a 55 gal and a 10 gal sump, so I need to dose for 65 gallons and really don't know how to do it. I've read Rex Grigg's guide, as well as the info on APC made available by Greg Watson. I've even read what Tom Barr has to say about dosing but there is so much information and different ways to do it I'm confused and hesistant to crunch the numbers without help. For instance Gadd recommends target KNO3 levels of 5ppm whereas Grigg recommends 10-20ppm. Which is it?

Should I do a big PWC before I start dosing, and does anybody feel like helping me figure out the correct dosage for 65 gallons?
 
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Sorry about your guorami, that does sound a little off.

Once you decide on pps or ei, we'll help you get the numbers right. I think I've got spreadsheets already to help calculate it all out that I've built and used with the help of members here. It can be a little overwhelming/confusing at first, for either method, but once you get it down it actually does start to make sense.

I would do the PWC before you start. It just establishes a good baseline for you to track your progress against, and takes away a little from the unknown factor.
 
Okay I decided to go with EI, it just seems easier and lots of people here seem to be doing it.

I bought my ferts from R. Grigg and he suggested the following for 40-60 gals. Since my tanks equal 65 gals, I figure it is safe to use this since EI "overdoses". I figure the plants should still have plenty.

This is what he suggests:
50% PWC once a week
1/2 teaspoon KNO3 three times a week
1/8 teaspoon KH2PO4 three times a week*
1/4 teaspoon K2SO4 three times a week
10ml Plantex CSM+B three times a week (do not dose with KH2PO4)
2-4 ml Iron three times a week (do not dose with KH2PO4)

Note: If you dose KH2PO4 at the saem time as Plantex CSM+B or iron you may get the formulation of iron phosphate which is almost impossible to dissolve in water.
Click to expand...

This will be my schedule, with the amounts matching the above (unless yall tell me diff'nt;)):

Sun. 50% PWC, and then dose KNO3, KH2PO4, K2SO4
Mon. CSM+B
Tue. KNO3, KH2PO4, K2SO4
Wed. CSM+B
Thur.KNO3, KH2PO4, K2SO4
Fri. CSM+B
Sat. Nothing??:confused:

There are two things I don't get:
(1) Why the heck didn't he give me any iron in the combo pack if his directions call for dosing it??? Seems very wierd, but I think An T-iasg or Purrbox told me that everything I need will be in the combo pack, (1.5) so do I just not need this extra Iron?
(2) Why is everything in teaspoons except the CSM+B? I don't want to have to keep bottles of liquid ferts around the house, not only b/c I dont feel like mixing and buying distilled/RO, but because I want to, once a week, be able to measure out my daily doses adn just dump them in from a pill box I bought today (thanks for that tip HG!).
(2.5) So how do I figure out how much (in teaspoons) CSM+B to dose?

More questions:

(3) How does my schedule look, suggest any changes?

(4) How do my amounts look, suggest any changes?

(5) Do I need to get Iron, I have lots of big als comprehensive plant fert that has lots of iron in it, should I just use that up, or will it "extra-overdose" the other stuff too much?

I got my drop checker showing green, my timer and regulator seem to be worked out, I have my ferts and substrate and plants ready to go.

(6) My kH test kit works by adding one drop at a time, then when it turns yellow you multiply that number by 20 and that is your kH in ppm. It is yellow after just ONE drop. So how am I supposed to know that my kH is?
(7) Do I even need to worry about this since I now have my drop checker to show me whats up with the CO2?

I've only been running 108w for 10 hours (reminder: catalina HO T5s), and I'd like to run them at 216. I know I don't want to cut off my nose to spite my face, and cause myself problems by being antsy to use my lights full power, but I didn't pay for such high wattage to just not use it.

(8) How many hours a day should I run how many watts?

(9) I'm getting green spot algea on the glass, some hair alge (at least I think it's hair, it grows in small patches and sort of shoots out in all directions like a volcano exploding), and there is some algea growing on the edges of plant leaves.

I assume my algea problems (or the beginning of them) are from fert deficiencies. Tom Barr seems to swear that if lighting, and CO2 is in order, which I hope/think it is, (says my drop checker anyway), then it is always from fert DEFICIENCIES, not excesses.

(10) So now that I started fertilizing, just today, should I expect it to go away, or do something to make it go away?

Thanks for helping, I think I'm nearing the end of the beginning of my learning. I can't see what else more I haven't asked you about or read about already, though I'm sure there'll be something.

BTW, I downloaded Gadd's calc, and it is pretty sweet. I changed the preferences to show green(good co2) at 30ppm though.
 
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I'll try to help. I'm still learning this stuff myself though.

1. CSM+b contains iron so you probably don't need to dose it seperate.
2. You can dose csm dry. Here is a nice csm calculator Calculators and Tools. Taking suggestions for other online calcs. Following EI's general dosing guideline a 40-60gal would need 1/8tsp trace (csm+b)

3.Your schedule looks fine.
4. The notes I have on EI list the following
40-60 Gallon Aquariums
+/- 1/2 tsp KN03 3x a week
+/- 1/8 tsp KH2P04 3x a week
+/- 1/8 tsp K2S04 3x a week
+/- 1/8 (10ml) Trace Elements 3x a week
50% weekly water change

5. I would use the dry ferts only.
6. Not sure. If your having problems reading your test kit is it an option to take a water sample to your LFS?
7. I wouldn't worry about it personally. But maybe thats an err on my part. I'm still learning also.
8. I run mine about 10 hrs a day @ 3watts per gallon.
9. I would try to remove as much algae as possible. I haven't read this whole thread so I don't know if you have any fish yet but now would be a good time to introduce an algea control crew (ottos, shrimp, SAE's, etc). Again going from what I've gathered spot algae indicates low Po4 levels. Not sure about the second type you mentioned. The third sounds a lot like black beard algea, nasty stuff. Usually comes from too-low of co2 levels IIRC. A couple of SAE's can clear that up pretty quickly.

10. It's not gonna go away overnight. see #9

Hope this helps.
 
I would either continue running your lighting the same until you get the algae under control, or only run the full lighting for 8hrs. Once you get things going the way you want then you can increase the intensity and/or duration of your lighting, just be sure to watch out for the increased nutrient demand that is likely to follow. With EI this is less likely to be an issue, but it's still a good idea to keep an eye out for increased algae or deficiency symptoms.

Are you using tap/tank water or a KH solution in your drop checker? This will determine how accurate it's readings are. If you are using a 4dKH solution and the drop checker is turning green, maybe even a bit yellow, then your CO2 levels should be fine.

No need for separate iron dosing, just increase the CSM+B dosing if you find you need more. When extra iron is needed you often need more of the other trace supplements as well.

Some algae will vanish on it's own once the aquarium is in balance, but others will simply stop spreading. At this point you just remove the affected leaves and enjoy your mostly algae free aquarium. There's always going to be a small amount of algae in aquarium, the trick is to ensure that it isn't especially noticable.

Chuck's calculator is an excellant tool, but as you've already noticed his recommendations tend to be on the conservative side. I think most of us have bumped the CO2 chart levels.

I think Peyton's already covered most of your other questions very well.
 
Yeah the others were too fast. :) I would dose the CSM+B 3 x per week (on alternate days of your macros ferts) at 1/8 tsp. ;)
 
Great to hear, thanks for the responses. It makes sense that the dosing for CSM+B would be the same as the KH2PO4 since they're only supplied in half the quantity of the other ferts.

As far as my drop checker solution, HG was kind enough to send me some extra of hers, which is a releif b/c this way I'm sure it's made correctly. IIRC, she said it was made from distilled. One thing troublesome though is that the directions they sent with the drop checker said to use 3 or 4 drops of reagent. Which is it, 3 or 4? I really don't know why they did this since it's so easy to get nicely defined drops. Does it not matter?

There is some inconsistency though: Rex suggests dosing 1/4 tsp K2SO4 three times a week whereas Peyton (and others) suggest only 1/8 tsp three times a week. Which is it?

I've read that eventually you'll be able to tell what you need just by looking at your tank, but I am faaaaaaar away from this point, so I'm just trying to nail down a good regime to set a baseline.

I'm also curious as to how long these ferts will last: 1 lbs each of KNO3, K2SO4, and a half pound each of KH2PO4 and CSM+B?? Anybody with a similar sized tank know how long one of rex's combo packs lasts them?

Also at roughly 4bps, how long can I expect a 10lbs CO2 tank to last? I'm sure each is quite a long time and VERY hard to guage so I'm just wondering about estimates.

BTW, I read like a 30 page long thesis on EI written by Tom Barr last night...Geese that is some dense material, I can't beleive I did that for "fun."
 
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