Sustainable tanks

[Rivercats]

You do realize people at pet shops are there to sell right? I've been in the hobby since the 70's and there are many very experienced hobbyist on this forum so I'm not talking without knowing what I'm talking about. I have had ponds for many many years and have raised goldfish and koi. IF you do some serious online research on not only stocking levels of a tank BUT what is the minimum size tank an orando goldfish and the hillstream loaches (that is what you have, they are not pleco but just somehow got that name stuck to them) you will see that all of these fish need much larger tanks. The goldfish will stunt if kept in such a small tank. Can the orando be kept in a 15g tank... yes. SHOULD the orando be kept in a 15g tank... absolutely not! Did you happen to ask the person in the fish store how many years of experience she actually has? I recently sent home with the grandkids the 8 fancy (some orando's, a lemon head orando, and other fancies) goldies I raised that were now all over 8 inches that took 2-3 years to attain. I was down to 3 of these per 55g tank and that was too many to keep water quality good with excellent canister filtration on the tank as well as 2x weekly 50% WC. Those goldies still have alot of growing to do. Your orando will never reach it's full size potential in a 15g tank as stunting will occur if left in it. Again do some research about what causes stunting in goldfish. It's your tank so you can do what you want but the advice you have been given here is spot on! Take it for what it's worth but if you care about doing what is right for your fish then do the research yourself on proper minimum tank size for the species you have, stunting (the causes of), how much waste and ammonia goldfish produce, and how Hillstream loaches need high flow water and proper amounts of algae or food like Repashy Algae superfoods in order to thrive (I have Hillstream loaches too).

 

[AquaDave]

Confused.com?

I am really confused. Pets at home seem to know what they're doing, as well as some sites on the internet that say 1-2 L of water per cm of fish. Also, my mum had a goldfish in a small tank when she was a child and she put orange juice in it because she thought it was thirsty, but the goldfish lived for 9 years, plus had been passed down two or three times and those people had it for years before my mum's family got it. Many people at two different pets at home stores don't say I should get a bigger tank, my parents say "I wouldn't worry it fine isn't it?" AND the chemicals seem OK. Plus, I can't afford a bigger tank unless going into my savings which I don't really want to do, and many fish have survived for years in tanks smaller than mine, and we have no space to put the tank anyway (at the minute).

But then again, lots of people on here say that I should have a tank double the size at least, and others are saying Orangey doesn't have enough etc. I think it's more America vs Britain. Loads of people in Britain r saying the 2 L per cm of fish thing, while (I guess most of u guys r American) the Americans say more the tens of GALLONS per fish.

Some time this week I'l think I'll go to the pets at home near me, ask a couple of people there; then go to the bigger pets at home further away and ask a couple of people there; I'll ask a load of my friends and family; I'll ask a tiny pet shop near me who seem to do better quality hay than at pets at home; I'll ask my local vets (one's American, one's British, one's European (who seemed to know more about things than the other two) and there's the nurse vets there and others); I'll ask my science teacher and finally my cousin who's a vet near the border of England and Scotland.

BTW pets at home doesn't work on profits, as the employees don't care if they make any profit because they get paid the same, in fact one guy said that in the next year or two I should be looking in the 100 L to 200 L range (I should be able to afford by then) but he suggested NOT looking at the pets at home shop as they're way too expensive; he says check on eBay.

PS remember I care for my fish very much and I will listen to all advice and I've had Orangey in a tank for two years and a bit in a 21 L tank; she/he's only had the 60 L since just after Xmas.

PSS thank u Rivercats and everyone else who's participated for all ur great advice!

 

[Rivercats]

The only flaw in your theory and research is your checking on amount of water needed per FISH. You need to research how much water is needed for the TYPE of fish your keeping. That makes a world of difference in what information you find. And as already said you can keep any fish in a tank too small but that doesn't mean it's the proper thing to do especially if stunting can happen. You can keep a goldfish in a small tank all it's life and it will only grow due to a certain small size due to stunting in a limited space. A stunted goldfish will have a larger head area and a funny smaller body. I'm not saying your not caring for your fish, just that the 15g tank isn't suitable for it to attain it's proper growth. This isn't what just people in the US think, it's a fact. Remember be species specific when looking up fish information as general information will not be accurate. There is a big difference of an inch of say and Oscar or Goldfish compared to an inch of neon tetra per 1 liter or 2. Hope this is a little clearer.

 

[Rivercats]

Here's some info on Orando goldfish and tank size needed:

Goldfish Care - Types | Pictures | Diseases and Treatment: Goldfish Care: Caring Oranda Goldfish

Right Size Aquarium for Goldfish

Goldfish: A Guide for Proper Care and Living Environment

Tropical Fish for Freshwater Aquariums: Oranda Fancy Goldfish, Assorted

Hong Kong Pleco's (Chinese Hillstream Loach) info and tank size needed:

Beaufortia kweichowensis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Hillstream Loach - Beaufortia kweichowensis

Hillstream Loach Fish Care | We're All Wet

 

[T1KARMANN]

Is it possible to make an almost fully sustainable tank? It could have: [*]Sponge filter with aerator etc [*]Lots of plants [*]Moss balls [*]Huge tank [*]Good light [*]Orandas or common goldfish (or if u absolutely cannot use them then something else) [*]Hong Kong Plecs [*]Growing algae, duckweed and live animals like shrimp for the goldfish to eat [*]Shrimp or whatever breeding ground that the fish can't get to [*]Anything else I might need And all I would need to do is occasionally feed the fish, very occasionally water change and just as occasionally wash the sponge off (or if I don't need to do any of these then I wouldn't) So is this possible? It would be quite cool if it didn't harm the fish in any way PS don't worry this is only theory I won't do this

All I do is feed my tank

It does it's own water changes

Apart from feed all I do is change uv tubes every 6 months

 

[Rivercats]

All I do is feed my tank

It does it's own water changes

Apart from feed all I do is change uv tubes every 6 months

Not in a 15 gallon tank like the OP has... lol!

 

[Joeysdiscus]

All I do is feed my tank It does it's own water changes Apart from feed all I do is change uv tubes every 6 months

what do you mean it does it's own water changes???

 

[Sillyfishies]

what do you mean it does it's own water changes???

He has it hooked up so it constantly drips new water in while old water is being taken out.

This is on the topic of making a self sustaining tank.

 

[AquaDave]

Anyway, Joeysdiscus to answer ur question I think he means that he doesn't need to do any water changes because the Nitrosomas, Nitrospira, Nitrobacter bacteria and plants take care of the free Ammonia, Ammonium, Nitrite, Nitrate, pH etc.

 

[Delapool]

Got to say I'd be interested in a thread on that setup? I saw an old photo somewhere.

 

[Brilliant_Barbs_21]

Got to say I'd be interested in a thread on that setup? I saw an old photo somewhere.

There is lol check his threads started.

 

[Delapool]

I am really confused. Pets at home seem to know what they're doing, as well as some sites on the internet that say 1-2 L of water per cm of fish.

Hope I captured that quote right as I wanted to come back to this as it is an interest of mine. The 1-2l of water per cm of fish is similar to the 1 gall. per inch of fish guideline. The trouble with both is that they break down very quickly as soon as you start to take into account the fish type as mentioned (slim, small, full-bodied, messy eater, growth rate, at what level the fish swims at, etc, etc). Filter advances have made a difference but I've found they tend to be over-sold a bit (personal experience anyway). Also on personal experience I've found a weekly partial water change to be of benefit.

You are right AquaDave, there are some good fish shops out there with good people in them. Always good to know a good one. I also find it really hard to work out stocking levels - the simple rules don't really work and the complex ones look pretty hard to work out . So then the people who keep the fish (and the science is always progressing) are I think a really good source and I don't believe you will go far wrong on this forum.

 

[T1KARMANN]

What r u on about?!? Anyway, Joeysdiscus to answer ur question I think he means that he doesn't need to do any water changes because the Nitrosomas, Nitrospira, Nitrobacter bacteria and plants take care of the free Ammonia, Ammonium, Nitrite, Nitrate, pH etc.

No I don't mean that I don't have any plants

He has it hooked up so it constantly drips new water in while old water is being taken out.

That's right

 

[AquaDave]

No I don't mean that I don't have any plants



That's right

Oh that's cool. Never heard of that method... but wouldn't live plants just help with making the fish slightly happier?

 

[AquaDave]

Have any of u heard of Red shiner fish or aquaponics? I was thinking of getting a couple of red shiners as well as a couple of Hong Kong plecs in an 80 L tank (tub from Tesco). That means once they're all fully grown then they would have 10 L under 3 L per cm of fish each (diluting the water doesn't matter so much because it's aquaponics). But that should take a few years to get that big shouldn't it? Because by then I could move the fish to a much bigger aquarium (250 L?) with Orangey, Fin and Wings all together (unless I couldn't mix an Oranda, a couple of Red shiners and 4 Hong Kong Plecs).

 

[Brilliant_Barbs_21]

Have any of u heard of Red shiner fish or aquaponics? I was thinking of getting a couple of red shiners as well as a couple of Hong Kong plecs in an 80 L tank (tub from Tesco). That means once they're all fully grown then they would have 10 L under 3 L per cm of fish each (diluting the water doesn't matter so much because it's aquaponics). But that should take a few years to get that big shouldn't it? Because by then I could move the fish to a much bigger aquarium (250 L?) with Orangey, Fin and Wings all together (unless I couldn't mix an Oranda, a couple of Red shiners and 4 Hong Kong Plecs).

Yes but don't they only eat live small invertebrates? It would take a lot of feeding and unless you train it to take other foods and I don't think it would really be self sustainable.

 

[AquaDave]

Do any of u know any animals that will eat fish poo like will snails? Or worms? Even if I made the tank slightly self-sustaining it would be a step forward really wouldn't it?

 

[Brilliant_Barbs_21]

Do any of u know any animals that will eat fish poo like will snails? Or worms? Even if I made the tank slightly self-sustaining it would be a step forward really wouldn't it?

Yes, but it's pointless. Snails are mostly for algae. When they eat the poop they only create more of it later on.

 

[T1KARMANN]

Do any of u know any animals that will eat fish poo like will snails? Or worms? Even if I made the tank slightly self-sustaining it would be a step forward really wouldn't it?

My tinfoils eat ray poo which is lucky as my ray poo is like a adult cat pooing in my tank

 

[Brilliant_Barbs_21]

My tinfoils eat ray poo which is lucky as my ray poo is like a adult cat pooing in my tank

lol gross