Wigglers 2: Birth of a hatchery & everything Angels

[brennae]

I found that documenting on this site with a thread and pics has been helpful as well.

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[Andy Sager]

I was kinda doing the same thing but the threads don't always stay available. I have such a hard time finding the original Wigglers at last!!! thread and there is so much great info on that thread that it would be a shame if it ever gets removed. It's bad enough they closed it down for new postings. So I would definitely keep an offline record as well as on here.

 

[RRP1501]

Andy, just a quick question; do you have to do water changes every day in a 20g breeder tank or can you go a couple of days between? I've been doing daily 25% changes now that the parents are allowing me to, pretty much.


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[Andy Sager]

Andy, just a quick question; do you have to do water changes every day in a 20g breeder tank or can you go a couple of days between? I've been doing daily 25% changes now that the parents are allowing me to, pretty much.


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My breeder tanks just have the breeding pair , a slate, plastic plant and a sponge filter. With just that, I only do water changes 1 or 2 times per week. If you allow the parents to raise the fry, you may need to do it more often due to the heavy feeding you are going to be doing for the fry. This is why i prefer to hatch and raise in a separate tank. Less chance of hurting the parents with something unknown in the water and less water to change in the smaller hatch out tanks. In a worst case scenario, I would rather lose a spawn than lose the parents. THEY can make more babies.

 

[RRP1501]

Ok. What's a good size for a hatch out tank, 10g?


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[Andy Sager]

Ok. What's a good size for a hatch out tank, 10g?


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I use 10 gal tanks filled with a measured 5 gals of water for hatching. My Friend uses 1 gal containers for hatching. I've used 1 gal glass jars, 1/2 gal glass jars, 2 1/2 gal tanks and the only real difference is that big spawns are a little cramped in smaller jars prior to free swimming so you shouldn't use large spawns in smaller containers. By using the 10 gal tanks, there is no need to physically move the fish for the first 30 days. In the other containers, they should be moved as soon as they are free swimming or have started eating. All I need to do in those 10s is to add 1 gal of water daily until it's filled keeping in mind that I am siphoning leftover food out of the tank prior to filling.
Hope this helps.

 

[skylane]

I use 10 gal tanks filled with a measured 5 gals of water for hatching. My Friend uses 1 gal containers for hatching. I've used 1 gal glass jars, 1/2 gal glass jars, 2 1/2 gal tanks and the only real difference is that big spawns are a little cramped in smaller jars prior to free swimming so you shouldn't use large spawns in smaller containers. By using the 10 gal tanks, there is no need to physically move the fish for the first 30 days. In the other containers, they should be moved as soon as they are free swimming or have started eating. All I need to do in those 10s is to add 1 gal of water daily until it's filled keeping in mind that I am siphoning leftover food out of the tank prior to filling.
Hope this helps.

Hi Andy, just to let you know still following man. Lots of good stuff here my friend, just a bit busy at work but I gotta get me going on with my stuff soon thumbs

Clem.

 

[Andy Sager]

So my new potential cause turned out to not be it either. I'm not sure if I should or about this. Once again, the spawn from pair #4 is dying in the wiggler stage, the spawn from the Gold marble pair ( with a proven male) died all while the 1/2 black spawn from the original pair are doing okay. What's the difference between the fish? Some age but not much else. Success and failure both are coming from my buddy's fish so it's not them. Just not sure what else to try as the new Cobalt food hasn't seemed to change the results yet either. The only other thing I am trying now is going back to the Omega One food ( since some of the fish weren't eating the Cobalt food anyway) and hoping that the new pairs that are developing will start to work. Right now I have 2 spawns from 2 of the 3 new pairs and I pulled one but have to leave the other in the tank because they spawned on the glass ( because SOMEBODY forgot to put a slate in that tank after Saturday's water change. Not gonna say who. ) I'm going the peroxide route this time on the Marble and 1/2 black pair #3 spawns since they both happened today.

On another note, I need to be more vigelent with my cory cats. I seem to be missing their spawns. Came in Sunday to find one egg in the tank then, about an hour later, it was gone. Just not hacking the community spawning tank because somebody obviously ate the eggs. I had to temporarily use the tank I was going to use to spawn them in so I will remove the males from the tank before I change water in there next week.
The little guppy fry are still doing good and I'm still waiting for the other female to drop.

So that's my story for today. It's MNF night so I'm done for the day. ( after I feed the fish. )

 

[brennae]

Which formulation of Cobalt did you try? I know there are more varieties than what my lfs carries. I've been feeding the tropical blend but I'm having thoughts about asking them to special order the breeder formula.

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[RRP1501]

Thanks Andy. Maybe the next spawn I'll try it. The second batch of eggs started wiggling today and the parents are actually very laid back and haven't attacked the siphon, yet! And these two are eating just as if they hadn't laid eggs. Probably will change after the fry are free swimming.


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[Andy Sager]

Which formulation of Cobalt did you try? I know there are more varieties than what my lfs carries. I've been feeding the tropical blend but I'm having thoughts about asking them to special order the breeder formula.

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I used the Pro breeder Formula as suggested by PoppaRyno. The only fish I had issues with this food with were a couple of pairs of breeders. But the food I used instead for this pair didn't seem to fix the problem either so I have no 100% formed opinion of this food. I did see some decrease in detritus with the fish but most of the fish were grow outs more than the breeders.

 

[coralbandit]

I know what me and you are doing is apples and oranges....
But not so much I may not help?
I need to water the seed..
If it is even a possibility I would give an ro unit a shot.
I know my breeding season just hit, but we breeders know how to make things happen also.
HUKIT shot down my kens fish but I know how to read(links) and my fish seem to agree with my understanding of that food battle.
My fish (again besides possible season) have made a 180 degree turn in every way 2 weeks or less of water changing(the parameters).

I know you asked for recommendations on ro units so if you need one (BRS) let me know.
I can only say I know how frustrating it can be and with your 'out loud' several year plan which I so admire,my 3 years running on 1 species(I had no clue) I know you and I will figure it out.
I hope I am half way through the woods!
They it takes as long to get in as out...
Only the serious and strong will win.(Poppa you're "shotgun"!)
I dig how many want to breed and how 'neet' it is but in all reality and time
it is way more effort then $.
Your problem is not food IMO.

 

[Andy Sager]

I know what me and you are doing is apples and oranges....
But not so much I may not help?
I need to water the seed..
If it is even a possibility I would give an ro unit a shot.
I know my breeding season just hit, but we breeders know how to make things happen also.
HUKIT shot down my kens fish but I know how to read(links) and my fish seem to agree with my understanding of that food battle.
My fish (again besides possible season) have made a 180 degree turn in every way 2 weeks or less of water changing(the parameters).

I know you asked for recommendations on ro units so if you need one (BRS) let me know.
I can only say I know how frustrating it can be and with your 'out loud' several year plan which I so admire,my 3 years running on 1 species(I had no clue) I know you and I will figure it out.
I hope I am half way through the woods!
They it takes as long to get in as out...
Only the serious and strong will win.(Poppa you're "shotgun"!)
I dig how many want to breed and how 'neet' it is but in all reality and time
it is way more effort then $.
Your problem is not food IMO.

Thanks CB but about half way through this whole thing, I did try with R/O water from my buddy, Bottled distilled water from Zypherhills which is in FL( both straight and mixed with my well water) , spring water and bottled drinking water and all had the same results. PLUS, I did have 2 successes during this time. One fry from the new Gold Marble pair did survive and became free swimming. I kept him going about 3 weeks but he was deformed and taking up a whole tank by himself so when I needed the tank for another spawn, he had to go. Then there's the 1/2 black spawn that is now 3 weeks old and the next one from the same pair that should be swimming tomorrow if all goes okay.
So I have addressed:
>The genetic issue- I put pairs back together which had successful fry before.

>The water part 1- See above ( I asked about the R/O units back when I was trying his R/O water just in case it worked because it would be a 400+ mile trip for me to get water from him all the time. )

>The temp- Same as before only now controlled by A/C instead of individual heaters. ( I did try a couple tanks with heaters with the same result too. )

>Tank Hygiene- I resorted to bleaching out fry tanks and slates and used straight formaldehyde in the water the day before I would use the tank.

>The Water part 2- In the event that I had something in the well water that wasn't showing up in the tests, I used PRIME and nothing on different batches from the same pair with the same results.

>The eggs- I let them be parent raised, removed to a 10 gal tank, a 2 1/2 gal tank and a 1 gal jar. So far, the only successes have come from the 10 gal tanks but I have a good feeling about 1 of the 2 1/2s which I will hopefully confirm tomorrow.

> The egg meds- I've tried with nothing, M Blue, Nitrofurazone and now I am using peroxide on 3 spawns to see what happens. I was thinking the M. Blue went bad but the 1/2 black spawn that's 3 weeks old was hatched in the same stuff with the same amount as usual so I doubt it was that. ( Plus, I understand that M blue takes years...many of them, to go bad so I know this isn't old because I made it myself from my neighbor's crystals. )

> The fish part 2- I was thinking the established fish were too old but I confirmed dates with mine and my buddy's and these fish shouldn't be too old to do anything. Also, Older fish produce lesser amounts of eggs and successful fry with time but these spawns are HUGE that I am losing and sans the 2 examples, no successful fry, as in Somebody turned the living switch off on the fry on just about all the fish, so that negates the old age issue HOWEVER, I do have some established fish with new partners which are young fish so it might be the young fish that are the problem for them but why the old fish too?
I was also thinking the pairs got some type of bacterial disease or viral disease that has now spread into all the breeder tanks but that seems unlikely as the successful spawns' pairs are in the middle of unsuccessful pairs so how did the diseases skip them?

> Possible biological issues- I do have some rather large tree frogs that get into the place from time to time so I tried the bleach then bleach then formaldehyde in a sealed tank but got same results. I tried adding an established sponge filter upon hatching and removal of the M. Blue as well as extra aeration with the big spawns with no success.

>Lighting- Same amount of light hours daily now as the place is on a timer. Before, I was turning the lights on and off manually for about the same amount of hours.

> Which kinda leads to the food, no? It has to be something as these fish were breeding machines. I have tanks and tanks and ponds and ponds filled ( over filled actually) with fry from them so the only other difference than all that I described is that the GM pair was a mix of an established fish with my Buddy's fish who he had not gotten to spawn for him and I got 1 deformed fry and with the 1/2 blacks, there was a 6 month hiatus between spawns ( both producing viable fish, see pics ) and now a 22 day stretch between spawns and I should know about success tomorrow. What else is there? Something is making these fry too weak to swim except for one pair. They all get exactly the same everything so why the one pair? The only thing I can think of is that the parents have better quality eggs and sperm because they had it stored up for so long opposed to these other fish which spawn about every 7-12 days. If that's the case, then it is the food as it's not nutritious enough to help them repair and restrengthen in that short amount of time. This is why I am going back to exactly what I was doing before. I just received my 5 lb box of Omega one flakes today and will add their color food ( as before) and continue with the FD Tubifex worms and frozen brine shrimp. THEN If that doesn't work in a month's time, it's time for new fish. ( You hear that Poppa????? )

Thanks for the suggestion but can you think of anything I missed?

 

[Andy Sager]

Well, sadly, today came with similar results. Now I am 98% convinced the issue is a nutritional one. I walked out of here last night at about 1 a.m. and looked at the 1/2 black fry just before leaving. There was maybe 2 or 3 dead fry in the tank but they had been there for a couple of days because I couldn't siphon them out without getting too many other fry with them. It wasn't worth the risk of losing that many fish considering the water was clear and the other fry were wiggling hard. This morning, about 95% of the tank is dead. Now, before you say it was those other dead fish that caused this, the spawn from pair #4 , in the other 2 1/2 gal tank, had a massive die off a day, maybe day & a half after hatching. I did not remove any of the dead fry as I had other things to do and I just figured the spawn was a loss so who cares when I clean it out? I started treating this tank with the Hydrogen Peroxide because I did see a small percentage of the fry were still holding on and as of today, no more fry have died off and I siphoned the dead ones out to see if this holds true tomorrow.

So all this still, especially the 1/2 black result makes me believe that the parents are not getting the right nutrition to make stronger babies. It's the food The only good part of this is that one of the fish from pair #4, when matched with another fish, wouldn't eat the Cobalt food so I started him on the Wardley food sooner ( and it contained the preservative and is what my friend feeds almost exclusively) which may account for why some of those fry are still hanging on. We will see.
So for now, I am still

 

[RRP1501]

Time to move Fry...

It's time to move my fry from the breeding tank to the grow out tank. I was planning on siphoning them out of the one tank into a 5 gallon bucket, then slowly pouring them into the grow out tank. Is this a good way to do it or am I missing something. I was going to pour some of the water from the grow out tank into the bucket to let the fry acclimate to the new water. Let me know if this is good or not.

 

[Andy Sager]

It's time to move my fry from the breeding tank to the grow out tank. I was planning on siphoning them out of the one tank into a 5 gallon bucket, then slowly pouring them into the grow out tank. Is this a good way to do it or am I missing something. I was going to pour some of the water from the grow out tank into the bucket to let the fry acclimate to the new water. Let me know if this is good or not.

Yes, use a larger diameter hose ( like a garden hose) so that the force of the water pulls the fry along and they can't swim away from it. You can adjust the suction strength by where ( how high) you position the bucket. If the 2 water parameters are the same, I would just pour into the new tank. There is never anything wrong with acclimating fish from one tank to another however, so if it would make you feel better, acclimate then pour. Just make sure you have some aeration in the bucket while acclimating.

 

[RRP1501]

Cool! Thanks Andy!


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[RRP1501]

Well, here are the fry in their new home for now. They seem to like it. They have 3 times the room in this tank. Now the task of culling them!??? Tell you the truth I don't see any deformed find right now, just a few that are smaller than the others! Man that was scarey for the first time!???


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[Mr Fisher]

Concerning food, I've had nothing but excellent results feeding Zeigler beeefheart flake.

Right now I'm feeding the beefheart and new life spectrum optimum flake to my prebreeders and the growth has been flat out nuts. Same with color. I wish I had some before and after pics.

Also here's a couple I got the other week from a friends stock. They were hanging together in his grow out tank and I'm hoping they are a pair.

They looked nothing like this when I got them. I'm beyond impressed with the NLS. I've seen the cobalt in my LFS so it's good to know it's quality.

 

[Andy Sager]

View attachment 279573Well, here are the fry in their new home for now. They seem to like it. They have 3 times the room in this tank. Now the task of culling them!??? Tell you the truth I don't see any deformed find right now, just a few that are smaller than the others! Man that was scarey for the first time!???


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Some deformities come over time. Bent fins in some of my fish don't show up until they are a couple months old, which is fine because i don't sell them before they are at least 3 months old or older. You just want to make sure you don't release a fish to others with obvious faults while not releasing too soon to see if the faults are late show-ers.

There will always be some "runts" in a spawn but I wouldn't be in a hurry to remove them unless they are deformed. With some of my pairs, their smaller fry get growth spurts once the larger fry are removed. Not always the case but something you need to know for the future. For example, I have my Koi angel who is still too small to be a viable breeder. PLUS, I now have another one of his siblings ( many spawns later) that is also starting to show that orange color. It's all in time.