Wigglers 2: Birth of a hatchery & everything Angels

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Grouping of wigglers happens. They should be ok once the egg sac starts getting absorbed. Its sticky. Ive used the dyed slate again and again. Andy taught me that MB goes inert after 48hrs. Havent had a problem yet.

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These are my original marbles, but one of them has two different colored eyes and the body markings which I'm now noticed has a red or orange in the black stripes on one side and the other side is just silver and black??? What the heck is going on with this fish of mine. He is the other pair, that's with my gold angle and very aggressive too.
The white marble, has gold on its head which I'm noticing even more as these fish mature, their colors are developed out more. Not sure what to make of their lineage, but the combinations can create some cool patters which I like, but the one with the two different colored eyes is the smaller of the bunch and has a spilt personality, two different body pattens and eyes, I like him because he gives you two sides of a coin when you look at him, kinda cool!!!View attachment 280958View attachment 280959View attachment 280961

I hate to say it but their lineage is P. Scalare. :confused: The problem with all of these Angelfish is that we would like to put them into color groups but standards for many of what is available now just confuse issues as much as they answer them. As I said previously, there are now 7 recognized "marble" Angels by The Angelfish Society. That's amazing if you think about it. What then constitutes a "Marble" and why do we now have 7 types and not only 1 type a.k.a. Marble?
I hate to say it but at this point, if you really want to have "pure bred" Angels, you need to buy directly from a breeder who used the genetically accepted parents to create those fish AND whose parents, Grand Parents, Great Grant Parents and so on, came from genetically accepted fish as well. That's going to be a tough nut to crack. :blink:
In reality, any Angelfish can be made into a "pure Bred Angelfish with time and selective breeding. The F0 generation is really not as important per say as down the line is. If you consider all Angels as "Mutts" ( a common term for mixed breed animals), which they are, you can breed into and out of them what you want. It just takes time.
As for your fish changing colors, I have the same thing. if you go back to the original Wigglers at last!!! thread, you will see me mention a trio of fish with 2 Gold Marble females and a Koi male. The Koi male came from a tank of Koi Angels. Both females came from a different shop in a different state which was buying from one local breeder and were labeled and looked like Gold Marbles. I presume they are sisters. It's now over 2 years that I have these fish and both females now have developed orange in their bodies and their white coloration has become more pronounced. This coincides with both fish being matched with mates that do have either orange or red in their coloration at an early age and are creating fish with orange or red that is delayed in showing. So this just kind of shows that you really can't tell what a fish's lineage is without knowing the lineage beforehand which is an unlikely scenario today. I'd suggest you just enjoy what you have, as you get it and if you want to improve upon a feature of a singular fish, you will have to "work it". (y)

What kind of color/name would you call this fish? It is the freebie baby that came in my plants in the spring and it is probably half grown now. But was wondering if anyone might think it is a certain color. As for the pic being crooked I loaded and reloaded it and it is normal in my pics and turns sideways when I load to the album, even tried to make it off in my computer pics so it, might load right here but no!
60074-albums14456-picture69456.jpg


I also got 4 double black babies from someone last week, very pretty too.

I suggest you read through the abaove comment and then check out this link: TAS Library - Angelfish Genetics to determine what you have. Those are the recognized colors of Angelfish. Everything else is a mix. (y)

Looks like a silver to me


Fishobsessed7

Money Can't Buy Happiness, But It Can Buy Fish Which Is Pretty Much The Same Thing
There is no such thing as a "Black" Silver. The original Silvers that started showing some Black were the original Black Angels. These showed the stripes under the right conditions. Since then, the color has been modified to not show the stripes. (y)

I have angelfish wigglers now!

I have some more silly questions though

What does it mean if it seems like some wigglers are almost "stuck together"?

My breeding slate is dyed blue. Is it still fine to put back with the parents?

Poppa got you on this one. ;)No big deal with the clustering or the dyed slate but you may want to eventually try bleed out the M Blue once it gets too saturated so you don't get too heavy a dose on your eggs in the future. You have time for this.
Truthfully, I've never had any of my slates turn blue from the dye so if it is a concern of yours, you can always switch to Peroxide instead of M Blue. I'm not seeing any real difference in the amount of post white egg getting fungus between the 2. (y)
 
Ok! I was mostly worried about a few clusters that ended up with dead eggs in them but I stirred them gently and got most of the dead eggs without losing more than 2 or 3 wigglers. I thought it was odd that so many dead eggs came off with the wigglers.

I just got the m blue and didn't have much luck with the peroxide so I think I'll try the blue again with the next batch from the beginning and see how it goes!
 
There is no such thing as a "Black" Silver. The original Silvers that started showing some Black were the original Black Angels. These showed the stripes under the right conditions. Since then, the color has been modified to not show the stripes. (y)


Ok! Thanks for the clarification!


Fishobsessed7

Money Can't Buy Happiness, But It Can Buy Fish Which Is Pretty Much The Same Thing
 
Ok! I was mostly worried about a few clusters that ended up with dead eggs in them but I stirred them gently and got most of the dead eggs without losing more than 2 or 3 wigglers. I thought it was odd that so many dead eggs came off with the wigglers.

I just got the m blue and didn't have much luck with the peroxide so I think I'll try the blue again with the next batch from the beginning and see how it goes!

Truthfully, I find it more a pain in the butt to get the dead eggs out before the fry are free swimming that I stopped doing it un less they already fell off the slate. I've had so many fry not have any issues being in a tank with fungused eggs that I don't think twice about it. As long as the fry water is clean, you should be okay. (y)

Ok! Thanks for the clarification!


Fishobsessed7

Money Can't Buy Happiness, But It Can Buy Fish Which Is Pretty Much The Same Thing


No problem. ;)(y)
 
Truthfully, I find it more a pain in the butt to get the dead eggs out before the fry are free swimming that I stopped doing it un less they already fell off the slate. I've had so many fry not have any issues being in a tank with fungused eggs that I don't think twice about it. As long as the fry water is clean, you should be okay. (y)




No problem. ;)(y)

Few! Ok, I was terrified that fungus would attack the dead eggs and destroy the entire cluster of wigglers around it! Sounds like that's not an issue. I won't worry about it too much anymore then! You da man Andy! I'll keep you posted on these fry!
 
Today was the fish auction from the Tampa Bay Aquarium Society and I have to say, I was good and stayed within budget. :D I did lose a couple of auctions because I just wouldn't let myself overspend and I'm sure, in the long run, it will all work out for the best. :whistle: So the hatchery has grown to now include Black Phantom Tetras and Penguin Tetras ( actually false Penguins Thayeria boehlkei) which are 2 of my fave fish besides Angels :whistle::brows:. I've bred both of these fish before but it was a long, long time ago so these are now for me to have some fun. :D:facepalm: They do need to have a bit of time growing but they all look great so far. We'll see in the a.m. if that still holds true. :angel: Sure glad I cleaned a couple of tanks yesterday even tho I was anticipating only buying some Bettas if they were available. ( They weren't, at least not what I was looking for. )

A little Angel update: It appears that both sets of fry that were free swimming have died. I'm okay with that because they became free swimming which is more than I can say for the others. The thing is that these were 2 pairs ( 1 pair and 1 trio actually) with unproven fish in the mix and the fry looked to be small and unable to eat the newly hatched brine shrimp which may have been the reason for their demise. The timing is right for that. I think the real test is going to be the 1/2 black spawn and the Zebra Lace spawn. These are both proven fish with proven offspring. The wigglers even look larger than the fry I just had so I have more hope for them. Plus, with the addition of the Tetras, I would need to start some infusoria cultures for their fry so I would have it available for the smaller Angel fry. But that shows how much the Angelfish has shrunk with time. In the old days, the brine shrimp didn't even have to be " newly" hatched and newly swimming fry could eat day old or 2 day old brine shrimp with no issues. Not any more it seems.

Lastly, it was nice to meet fellow AA member UnstopaBULLfish at the auction. He got some nice Guppies so hopefully, he will do well with them. (y)
 
Few! Ok, I was terrified that fungus would attack the dead eggs and destroy the entire cluster of wigglers around it! Sounds like that's not an issue. I won't worry about it too much anymore then! You da man Andy! I'll keep you posted on these fry!

Yeah good healthy fry can usually fend off the fungus. I've had them actually use the fungus to hold them in place so unless you see the fry starting to die from fungal infection, I'd just wait. That said, once the fry are free swimming, use your airline siphon hose with a piece of rigid tubing and get those dead fungused eggs out of there. The fry's food will become more susceptible to being ruined by the fungus. (y)
 
Today was the fish auction from the Tampa Bay Aquarium Society and I have to say, I was good and stayed within budget. :D I did lose a couple of auctions because I just wouldn't let myself overspend and I'm sure, in the long run, it will all work out for the best. :whistle: So the hatchery has grown to now include Black Phantom Tetras and Penguin Tetras ( actually false Penguins Thayeria boehlkei) which are 2 of my fave fish besides Angels :whistle::brows:. I've bred both of these fish before but it was a long, long time ago so these are now for me to have some fun. :D:facepalm: They do need to have a bit of time growing but they all look great so far. We'll see in the a.m. if that still holds true. :angel: Sure glad I cleaned a couple of tanks yesterday even tho I was anticipating only buying some Bettas if they were available. ( They weren't, at least not what I was looking for. )



A little Angel update: It appears that both sets of fry that were free swimming have died. I'm okay with that because they became free swimming which is more than I can say for the others. The thing is that these were 2 pairs ( 1 pair and 1 trio actually) with unproven fish in the mix and the fry looked to be small and unable to eat the newly hatched brine shrimp which may have been the reason for their demise. The timing is right for that. I think the real test is going to be the 1/2 black spawn and the Zebra Lace spawn. These are both proven fish with proven offspring. The wigglers even look larger than the fry I just had so I have more hope for them. Plus, with the addition of the Tetras, I would need to start some infusoria cultures for their fry so I would have it available for the smaller Angel fry. But that shows how much the Angelfish has shrunk with time. In the old days, the brine shrimp didn't even have to be " newly" hatched and newly swimming fry could eat day old or 2 day old brine shrimp with no issues. Not any more it seems.



Lastly, it was nice to meet fellow AA member UnstopaBULLfish at the auction. He got some nice Guppies so hopefully, he will do well with them. (y)


Yep. I stayed on a relatively thin budget also spent $31 for a couple of fish. 2 pairs of long fin beautiful guppies and a pair of rose badis. Got some plants too. Then got some free bloodworms and food! Met up with Andy near the end after scouring the crowd only to realize I read the description wrong lol. Andy hooked me up with a 20 long!! Thx again! It was cool talking to you sir! Auction was great people were great and fish were great. Kinda going off topic srry about that.


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Cn
 
Yep. I stayed on a relatively thin budget also spent $31 for a couple of fish. 2 pairs of long fin beautiful guppies and a pair of rose badis. Got some plants too. Then got some free bloodworms and food! Met up with Andy near the end after scouring the crowd only to realize I read the description wrong lol. Andy hooked me up with a 20 long!! Thx again! It was cool talking to you sir! Auction was great people were great and fish were great. Kinda going off topic srry about that.


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Cn

Glad the tank helped. (y)
 
Checked on the new arrivals from yesterday and they all look great. :D Looks like I got 6 male and 6 female Black Phantoms and 12 Penguins in total at a price better than the Box Store's $.99 sales. :whistle: ;) Also put the plants out in some trays to see what they looked like and to do a snail check. Good thing too because I found 11 of the buggers in one of the trays already. :eek: I don't want snails in my tanks!!!! Too great a chance of them carrying diseases. :banghead: Too bad they discontinued selling "snail rid" in FL. :facepalm: After the QT period with these new fish, I will separate the sexes ( as best as possible with the penguins) so that they spend their energy on growing and priming for spawning. Looks like I will need to set up a little rack near a window for spawning them. I like using the natural ambient lighting for Tetras. (y)
 
I'm glad to here the auction went well, and you met an AA member there, very cool !!!
I like the tetras you picked up, one of my favs too. It will be nice to see them breed for you, and thanks for the info and type about my Angels.
We can only learn more from breeders like you man!!![emoji6]

Clem
 
It got a bit colder than I expected last night and I hadn't changed the A/C to heat so the temp inside the building went down to 75 on the fish side and 73 on the lure side. This may explain why the 2 spawns I expected to be swimming today are still just wiggling. So I can't make a clear determination if the fry issue is over as both tanks still have a lot of live fry, just not swimming fry. Today is day 7 since hatch. The other fish all seem fine so no worries here yet. I did leave my plant vats outside last night so hopefully the cold didn't effect them too bad. They are now in the sunshine getting warm ( I hope). The temp went down to the low 50s here. Anyone know how Naja (Guppy) Grass and Water Sprite do at these temps?
 
Hey man, colder?
Andy, just to warm you up brother its 0°C over here now[emoji22]

Clem
 
We just got a few inches of snow up here! Low 50s is beach weather!

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Hey man, colder?
Andy, just to warm you up brother its 0°C over here now[emoji22]

Clem

We just got a few inches of snow up here! Low 50s is beach weather!

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And THAT is why I still live in FLORIDA!!!!! ;);):dance::dance: It will be back up to the high 70s - low 80s in 2 days. THAT'S beach weather for us. :dance::dance: (y)
 
Talk to me when it's hotter than the surface of the sun in April ;)

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Talk to me when it's hotter than the surface of the sun in April ;)

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If you think April gets hotter than the sun, you will never survive here in the summers.:ROFLMAO: I've been in Maine in June and July when it was warmer there than here. It only gets really hot here in Aug, Sept ( the peak of the hurricane season btw :whistle: :lol:) Most other "non-winter" months it's just humid. The fish may not care about that but I sure do. So you come down in the summers to work my hatchery and I'll go fishing up there in Maine. :brows::D(y)
 
And THAT is why I still live in FLORIDA!!!!! ;);):dance::dance: It will be back up to the high 70s - low 80s in 2 days. THAT'S beach weather for us. :dance::dance: (y)
Man that sounds good!!![emoji106]
You've lived there long now Andy, its like you are now native there?
Opposite for me, born in the Caribbean and grew up in Canada. I can tolerate the cold for a bit, but prefer warmer climate as I age.
Well that's in the bucket list for me , a warmer place to live for sure!!!

Clem
 
I just wanna see the ocean again? I cant shake this feeling that we should join forces and wholesale.... Hmmmm.... Florida, huh.

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