Wigglers 2: Birth of a hatchery & everything Angels

[Andy Sager]

Today, I am working in the "other half" of the building and just looked up to see that the Black and Zebra Lace pair, that were moved to their more slightly more permanent tank on the breeder rack a couple of days ago, are spawning again. I'm ready for them this time!! Unfortunately, my camera is in the house and not here Okay, so I am almost prepared.

 

[Brookster123]

That angel looks phenomenal!

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[Andy Sager]

That angel looks phenomenal!

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Which one? I have a number of them that look that way to me

 

[Brookster123]

Well love must really be in the air because tonight, I had a second spawn for the day and the Black pair's male was cleaning the slate and has his tube dangling.
The first spawn was the above mentioned Blushing's. I did not have a tank ready to move the spawn ( I'm testing out some heaters I got from the breeder's room. a lot are no good ) so I put them into a jar with an airstone in the breeder's tank so they can stay at that constant temp. I'm not really sure if it is crueler to leave the eggs where the parents can see them but can't get to them or if taking them out of sight is? They were very actively trying to get through the jar and deal with the eggs. But since I lost their last spawn, I need to know what the story is with this pair, fertility wise.

Next came the Gold Marble. This is actually the rejected female from the trio I wrote about in the original "Wigglers at last" thread and posted a video of one of their spawns. I lost her mate in July I picked up this very nice looking marble a few months ago in hopes that it would be a male ( I had a feeling ) and that I could pair him with her. Well, they have been together a little more than a week and "Bingo, Bango, Bongo, I gotta a spawn to share with you all. I had noticed that she was going around to all the corners in the tank and "cleaning" the silicone. I couldn't have that so I moved her slate into a corner and went back in the house to get more slates to cover the other corners. But by the time I got back, I saw that she and the male both were concentrating on the slate so I didn't put the other 3 pieces in. Within a couple of hours, they were both "doing the deed". Unfortunately, I still didn't have any tanks to put the eggs in or jars ready for the spawn so they are with the parents under their care. I know she is a good caretaker but I don;t know about him. Guess I will find out. Interestingly enough, this male seems to also have some koi in him as there are some really red areas peeking out of his forehead. I can't wait to see what they throw.

Now, so Brookster can't say this didn't really happen unless there are pics,
Here's some pics

This one! !

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[Andy Sager]

This one! !

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Geez louise, there are 3 different fish in that post. lol Anyway, Thank You. The funny part is the blurry fish of the 3 has some underlying blood red on his forehead which I'm hoping will come out better in his offspring. That's why I made an effort to save what I could from their spawn. It should be another few days before they go at it again. I'll be prepared for it this time

 

[Mr Fisher]

New update: The blusher's egg's hatched There were a few more white eggs than I saw yesterday but the hatch percentage was still high. So now there are 2 active spawns I'm working for real.

We're wiggling together The gold spawn hatched same day as yours

Hows the heat/ac coming?

 

[Andy Sager]

We're wiggling together The gold spawn hatched same day as yours

Hows the heat/ac coming?

Based on the weather, it's not been an issue. It's still not in but I have heaters in the tanks with fish and the daytime temps are hovering around 80 degrees anyway. It was 82 today
Some of the Koi/ GM spawn started free swimming today. Shrimp are cooking, sponge filter cores are being sterilized and the blushing fry are spreading out in the tank. I'm thinking another 2 days for free swimming.
As for today's spawn, I pulled it quickly but used the same container and method (inside the main tank) to hatch them out as the blushing's. We will see how much better this one does. M blue is a little darker this time so i am having a slight issue seeing the eggs without brighter flashlights. We will see.

 

[Mr Fisher]

Sounds like things are going good If you get some stripeless veils I know I'll be interested. SSB veils would be super cool. I worked on making some acrylic tank lids today. I'll be going the glass route, acrylic is just a pain for me to work with.

 

[Andy Sager]

There's a lot going on right now and I'm taking pictures so there will be proof. lol Lots of changes coming in the next month or 2. Stay tuned.

 

[Andy Sager]

Quick update while I am at my 'puter
Koi/GM fry ( about 25-30 still with us )started eating BBS yesterday and the blushing angel fry started free swimming today. The Black/ Zebra Lace spawn should be hatching later today or tomorrow. Very few bad eggs this time so I have hope for a lot of fry from this spawn.
Pics to follow after the holiday

 

[Andy Sager]

Of course I have so little time this week to mess with anything and then BAM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I did water changes yesterday and within 20 minutes of adding the water back to the blusher's tank, they spawned. The Koi/ GM pair had their second spawn today and my original KOI/ GM pair from the VA fish are spawning while I write this. ( I'm actually only writing because I want them to finish so I can pull the spawns and feed the fish and go back to work.) I'll be busy next week for sure.

Sadly, I had a fatality this morning. The beautiful Silver veil in my Avatar has been fighting what I first thought was constipation for the past 1 1/2 - 2 weeks. I have been treating with Epsom salt baths and kanamycin which appeared to be helping the fish. Once that treatment was done and I could see defecation again the fish started feeding again but only for about 2 days. He stopped feeding and started to show a distended abdomen. I continued the baths and retreated with kanamycin. When he showed no response and continued to distend, I added Maracyn 2 to the treatment. Unfortunately, by this time, his abdomen was pretty swollen, his eyes were starting to pop out and his anal discharges where white liquid and had a foul odor to them. Internal infection for sure. After just 2 days on the maracyn 2, he died. I did a rough autopsy on him and found it was not "constipation" in it's own right but a blockage caused by something he had injested. I looked like a piece of gravel but I have no gravel in the tank so I'm not sure how he had it unless it had been in his system for some time as there was a plastic plant in his old tank that was being weighted down with some gravel. That would mean he had had that in his system a few weeks at least with no problems because he was moved into the building without that plant. Thankfully, I do have his genes in some of his offspring so the line doesn't die, just he did.
Welcome to the fish business.

 

[Mr Fisher]

Great to hear the spawns or going. Really sorry to hear about that fish. It actually made me like veils. I also just happened to pick up two small black zebras ysterday one of which is either veil or combtail.

Wish I could hop in a teleporter and come help next week It's so awesome seeing your plans come together!

 

[Fishobsessed7]

Andy, you need to breed some of these! http://www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/auction.cgi?fwangelfish&1420420205 they are amazing!


Fishobsessed7

 

[Andy Sager]

Andy, you need to breed some of these! AquaBid.com - Item # fwangelfish1420420205 - 6 Paraiba angels excellent color (PB line) veil - Ends: Sun Jan 4 2015 - 07:10:05 PM CDT they are amazing!


Fishobsessed7

Hate to say it but they don;t look that much different than my Blushing Angel Adults. Once I get them in better lighting for pics, I'll post them and let you decide. I've got a nice spawn of theirs being raised now so I am a little excited to see what the fry will look like. Then we can decide.

 

[Brookster123]

It's the circle of life!!! Blah blah Elton John lyricsss.... sorry for the loss man hopefully some epic babies come forth.

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[amyb_70]

Sorry for the loss

Of course I have so little time this week to mess with anything and then BAM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I did water changes yesterday and within 20 minutes of adding the water back to the blusher's tank, they spawned. The Koi/ GM pair had their second spawn today and my original KOI/ GM pair from the VA fish are spawning while I write this. ( I'm actually only writing because I want them to finish so I can pull the spawns and feed the fish and go back to work.) I'll be busy next week for sure.

Sadly, I had a fatality this morning. The beautiful Silver veil in my Avatar has been fighting what I first thought was constipation for the past 1 1/2 - 2 weeks. I have been treating with Epsom salt baths and kanamycin which appeared to be helping the fish. Once that treatment was done and I could see defecation again the fish started feeding again but only for about 2 days. He stopped feeding and started to show a distended abdomen. I continued the baths and retreated with kanamycin. When he showed no response and continued to distend, I added Maracyn 2 to the treatment. Unfortunately, by this time, his abdomen was pretty swollen, his eyes were starting to pop out and his anal discharges where white liquid and had a foul odor to them. Internal infection for sure. After just 2 days on the maracyn 2, he died. I did a rough autopsy on him and found it was not "constipation" in it's own right but a blockage caused by something he had injested. I looked like a piece of gravel but I have no gravel in the tank so I'm not sure how he had it unless it had been in his system for some time as there was a plastic plant in his old tank that was being weighted down with some gravel. That would mean he had had that in his system a few weeks at least with no problems because he was moved into the building without that plant. Thankfully, I do have his genes in some of his offspring so the line doesn't die, just he did.
Welcome to the fish business.

Hi Andy,
I have been following along quietly. I just wanted to say way to go, seems things have really taken off super quick for you and congratulations on that and the several successes you have already had.
I also want to say I am sorry to hear that you lost your beautiful veil she/he was lovely, glad that the genes are carried on. I guess that is one of the down falls with fish, we do get very attached. I am more attached to the fish in my 29 gal than I have been with any other pet I have had (there have been many).
May the new year bring you many healthy, happy Angels and Wigglers.

 

[Andy Sager]

It's the circle of life!!! Blah blah Elton John lyricsss.... sorry for the loss man hopefully some epic babies come forth.

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Thanks. Interestingly enough, the offspring I have are a mix of the Silver veil and Marble so the fish show both patterns. When I was at my buddie's picking up the new fish, he showed me a genetics books and that pattern was described in it as a "Barred Marble" pattern. This is where you can see both varieties phynotypically. What's even more "neat" is that some of the fish have halve black tails. The upper halves are black and the lower, clear like the silver. I can't wait for them to get older and see if it stays that way.

As for the fish, that's why I don;t name mine. It helps keep me detached , somewhat, as they all have a much shorter lifespan than I hopefully will. With how many I have at any one time, I'd be in a corner balling all the time if I got too attached to any one of them. Don't get me wrong, I care greatly about their well being and lives but I know going in that I will probably be giving a lot of them the "Big Aquarium in the sky".
Stay tuned, big changes coming in the next few weeks.

 

[Andy Sager]

Hi Andy,
I have been following along quietly. I just wanted to say way to go, seems things have really taken off super quick for you and congratulations on that and the several successes you have already had.

What this has hopefully shown is that these kinds of successes are not by accident but by design. Any one of you out there can have the same successes if you follow the same path I have described. I have moved fish from different water to the building and they have spawned. I moved my proven pairs from outside to inside, temperature challanged, where they have stopped spawning, to temperature controlled and they have started spawning again. What more proof do you need that the underlying principles of fish keeping are not opinion but science?

 

[amyb_70]

What this has hopefully shown is that these kinds of successes are not by accident but by design. Any one of you out there can have the same successes if you follow the same path I have described. I have moved fish from different water to the building and they have spawned. I moved my proven pairs from outside to inside, temperature challanged, where they have stopped spawning, to temperature controlled and they have started spawning again. What more proof do you need that the underlying principles of fish keeping are not opinion but science?

I think it's great that you have been successful at making such changes and still getting awesome results.
As for the underlying principals of fish keeping being science or opinion, I would Think each species is different so each situation is going to differ. I'm not a science person and have been fairing OK in keeping my fish. Again, only my opinion.
Anyway I wish you the best of luck on your venture and hope all continues to go as well as it has been.


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[Andy Sager]

I think it's great that you have been successful at making such changes and still getting awesome results.
As for the underlying principals of fish keeping being science or opinion, I would Think each species is different so each situation is going to differ. I'm not a science person and have been fairing OK in keeping my fish. Again, only my opinion.
Anyway I wish you the best of luck on your venture and hope all continues to go as well as it has been.


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Thanks for the
Regarding each specie being a different situation, you are correct. But there is a science to how each specie breeds. What I was referring to was that certain aspects of fish keeping are open to opinions (i.e which filter is better, what color gravel looks best for what fish, what size tank should be used, how much water to change and how often, for example.) while others are not. Case in point, Egg laying fish come in a variety of forms ( i.e. Scatterers, bubble nest breeders, gravel bed breeders, mouth brooders, anchorers, to name a few) and being proficient in breeding one type of these fish might make one appear to be highly advanced as a breeder while in fact, since these different types of egglayers are....different , success with one type does not guarantee success in the others. Each group of fish I was given to breed when I was younger, was a challenge at first even tho I had had to prove to my mentor that I could successfully and repeatedly breed a previous family of fish before I could move forward. No doubt I had an unfair advantage back then because of who I knew. However, because of who I knew, I was shown what needs to be done in order to have repeated success and continued to have it. There was little to no guessing involved. The knowledge came from research and experience. Even back then, people tried to tell us what we were doing wrong with our breeding format, only to end up buying the fish they said we were doing wrong. THAT has stuck with me for decades. If we were doing it wrong, how come we had fish every week to sell by using that wrong format? It just cracks me up. And I have witnessed it along the way in other situations as well so it's not a new human behavior. Not every opinion is right or needs or should be shared. But like I said, it just cracks me up.

What I am trying to show with this thread is that the methods I use today are the same methods and equipment I have used over 40+ years and so far have been having the same successes. You, the general you not the specific you , can have your opinions about it all you want but the proof, as they say, is in the pudding. Hopefully, it will open some eyes and minds to the "ART" or fish breeding as well as fish keeping. You can only judge others after you have accomplished what they are trying to do. THAT opinion is the one I follow.