Wigglers 2: Birth of a hatchery & everything Angels

[Andy Sager]

I can't wait for the day when I can stop saying " Oh Crap, another spawn probably not going to make it. " Sadly, the Silver's spawn is dead on the slate. So no new info there. Most of the 1/2 black #3's spawn is dead on the bottom of the tank. There are still a few fry hanging on but who knows what will come of them. ( edit: They spawned again tonight but I am going to leave them to parent raise? ) The spawn from yesterday is still hanging in there but i see more dead eggs today as the day went on. Not much hope for that one either. Then, I had a spawn in a tank where I had put my stud Black male in with a variety of 4 proven and most likely females. Today, the smallest of the bunch spawned with the male. Well, Black lace & Black should, in the future, lead to some interesting babies. since he has proven that he could spawn successfully with only a 7 day rest, I may just keep the group together and put up the divider only when I see action on the slate and see what comes from all that.
On a separate note, I had removed the divider in the 30 with all the Black Lace veils as I was concerned I didn't separate the right pair from the other fish. Today, I got to see the tubes of both fish I had separated and they are in fact a male & female. So hopefully they will start breeding more regularly once I move them into their own breeder tank. ( edit: they spawned tonight before I moved them. )
As for the Plecos, I did get 5 of the eggs to hatch but 1 of the fry appears to have died upon hatching. It is out of the shell and with a full yolk sac but it looked white before it was completely hatched and definitely white ( dead while not albino white) now that the egg mass is removed. So I ended up with 4 for now. At least it wasn't a total bust. I could always use 4 more.

 

[RRP1501]

Here are the Fry with Adam and Eve. It's been 2 weeks now with not many dying off. ?????? They have about doubled in size and are looking good, at least to my untrained eye. I've been doing the same routine and have included some Micro and Walter worms in there diet. Trying to give them a variety. The fry gobble up most of what I give them. Don't know what I would do without all of you who have given me info on raising Fry.


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[emilygupps]

My male looks like your gold cap!


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[RRP1501]

My male looks like your gold cap!


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Maybe we should get them together!?


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[emilygupps]

Maybe we should get them together!?


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He is so sad here. I would be willing to rehome him if you were local. But with one eye he has a hard time living with other fish.


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[RRP1501]

Wigglers 2: Birth of a hatchery & everything Angels

I'm in SE Ohio. I have another male Gold cap in my community tank. He's the boss of the tank but no mate, yet!


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[RRP1501]

Andy, my fry have been swimming now for two full weeks. I noticed today they are starting to get dorsal(?) fins. I also am seeing different shading and blotches of color. They have all at least doubled in size, some more than others. It's pretty cool to see them interact with each other. I've been going over all the topics here and can't find the one you said about using the lighting to possibly affect the markings of the fry. Can you tell me again about that? Thanks!???


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[Andy Sager]

Andy, my fry have been swimming now for two full weeks. I noticed today they are starting to get dorsal(?) fins. I also am seeing different shading and blotches of color. They have all at least doubled in size, some more than others. It's pretty cool to see them interact with each other. I've been going over all the topics here and can't find the one you said about using the lighting to possibly affect the markings of the fry. Can you tell me again about that? Thanks!???


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The phenomena really only applies to wild type ( Silver) fish or those with stripes (ie. Black Lace, single dose blacks, 1/2 Blacks, etc). It won't make a marbled or stripeless fish look anything different.

I tried to find some online sources for this but sadly, none really discuss it in depth as in some of my older books and experiences. The closest I could find was bits of the discussion here: TAS Library - Dr Norton Article: Half-Black Angelfish

Have a read through the whole thing and you will see examples of this in some of the pics.

 

[coralbandit]

Hey Andy(and all you other breeders following.....) I have a question I hope doesn't make you(any of you) repeat yourself.
I know your tanks are all in line(next to each other ,like mine) and wonder if you have ever noticed issues with pairs (neighbors) seeing each other??
Are your tanks painted??? I never noticed in pics?
I have wondered this for long time and actually placed dividers between tanks to block visibility many times before.
Sometimes I think it helps sometimes not?
Sometimes it really seems the change(ABC) eitherway gets them in line again?
Recently my GBR in the 10 g rack have been very reclusive.
So today I placed divider to block sight of each other and they seem to be out more already.
These guys have had plenty of time IMO to get comfortable, and am really just wondering where your thoughts are?

I am hoping your efforts yield you better results soon.
I know you were considering an ro system do think your water could be issue?
My tap has changed over the year myself,but I don't use it for breeding.

Next I know we can get our fish to breed on demand (almost) but IME the last 2 years my GBR always seem to breed better in the fall/winter.
Nov-Feb is ram time for me !
Could fish still hold some wild traits like knowing the season??
It sure ain't breeding season in NY Nov -Feb(for fish) but these guys were in the dark when they got shipped and I didn't tell them where we live(they seem happy in the fishroom!!)??

Nice pic RRP!

 

[PoppaRyno]

For GBRs, and most others i go Painted back and halfway up the sides is one of the better ways ive done it. It gives them a place to go back to for seclusion and comfort which aids spawning. Aldo gives them open space and the chance to see eachother which lets them know theres competition, too. Which in my experience keeps the vibrant colors up, and peacocking as well as keeps the instincts of the pairs strong.

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[Andy Sager]

Hey Andy(and all you other breeders following.....) I have a question I hope doesn't make you(any of you) repeat yourself.
I know your tanks are all in line(next to each other ,like mine) and wonder if you have ever noticed issues with pairs (neighbors) seeing each other??
Are your tanks painted??? I never noticed in pics?
I have wondered this for long time and actually placed dividers between tanks to block visibility many times before.
Sometimes I think it helps sometimes not?
Sometimes it really seems the change(ABC) eitherway gets them in line again?
Recently my GBR in the 10 g rack have been very reclusive.
So today I placed divider to block sight of each other and they seem to be out more already.
These guys have had plenty of time IMO to get comfortable, and am really just wondering where your thoughts are?

I am hoping your efforts yield you better results soon.
I know you were considering an ro system do think your water could be issue?
My tap has changed over the year myself,but I don't use it for breeding.

Next I know we can get our fish to breed on demand (almost) but IME the last 2 years my GBR always seem to breed better in the fall/winter.
Nov-Feb is ram time for me !
Could fish still hold some wild traits like knowing the season??
It sure ain't breeding season in NY Nov -Feb(for fish) but these guys were in the dark when they got shipped and I didn't tell them where we live(they seem happy in the fishroom!!)??

Nice pic RRP!

Post #125 of this thread shows how I do it. It just so happened that the Tetra tanks came with that nice aquatic background insert so I just wrapped it around the back of the tank up to about 3/4 of the way up the side. Since all the tanks are this way, I only need to do 1 side of each tank because the back of the divider still blocks view from the next tank.
What I found was that when the fish could always see their neighbors, interruptions during spawning were frequent as the males were spending more time trying to fend off the neighbors than fertilizing the eggs. By putting the slates in the areas where the dividers are, the fish will know there is competition when they come to the front of the tanks to feed but have peace and quiet when they are spawning.
As for the rams, when I was breeding them, I was doing wild ones and I did 1 pair to a tank and they were fairly isolated from any other fish in the room. I didn't use "dither fish" or rivalry with them as much as I did seasonal conditioning. Whether the domesticated fish still respond this way, I don;t know HOWEVER, I did have some species of SA Cichlids that did not produce well in the presence of a rival. My Oscars would constantly be trying to get to their neighbors and neglect the spawns so these fish were totally isolated from everyone. I found the same with Firemouths but when I was in Belize, I saw a field of wild Firemouth breeding nests right on top of another's ( similar to the American Sunfish breeding sites) so it may be the difference between a natural scenario vs a tank scenario?

As for if fish retain natural cycles, anything is possible but I think it has more to do with time frame than timing. What I mean is they go at, say for example, 60 days instead of the season. This would hold true for domesticated fish more than wild however as wild fish, I've found, seemed to be more zoned in onto light hours and water temps created by the seasons. This is why water changes spark breeding in many fish species.

As for my water, I am on a well and the water comes out really nice. I did do a test using different water not from the house or grounds and had the same bad result so I eliminated the water as the problem so RO filter is not in my immediate plans anymore. I still believe it was the food and I am seeing signs that some spawns are holding on longer than before before kicking off. It's still too soon to tell for sure whether this switch to the new food solves the problem tho.

 

[Andy Sager]

Andy, my fry have been swimming now for two full weeks. I noticed today they are starting to get dorsal(?) fins. I also am seeing different shading and blotches of color. They have all at least doubled in size, some more than others. It's pretty cool to see them interact with each other. I've been going over all the topics here and can't find the one you said about using the lighting to possibly affect the markings of the fry. Can you tell me again about that? Thanks!???


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Here's some more info on lights and patterns. : TAS Library - Dr Norton Article: Continuous Light Affects on Patterns

hope this helps

 

[RRP1501]

Moving Fry to a grow out tank

Andy, I know I have around 3 weeks before the fry are ready to be moved. The question is how to move them. I'm figuring that in 3 weeks thy will be about nickel size, if not larger. Should I use a larger hose to syphon them or a net? I don't want to cause any undue stress or damage them. The fry are just a little smaller than that little guy.

 

[Andy Sager]

Andy, I know I have around 3 weeks before the fry are ready to be moved. The question is how to move them. I'm figuring that in 3 weeks thy will be about nickel size, if not larger. Should I use a larger hose to syphon them or a net? I don't want to cause any undue stress or damage them. The fry are just a little smaller than that little guy.

I prefer to siphon the fry but at 5 weeks, they shouldn't be nickle body size yet. If they are, I'd just empty as much water as possible then pour the fry into a bucket to transfer or the other tank if that's possible. The less you net small fish the better.

 

[RRP1501]

Ok thanks Andy. I was just guessing at the size. I'm trying to get them used to having food come from above. I put the Bbs in above them and most of them are coming up for the food. It's so cool seeing them change every day!


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[Andy Sager]

As I've said, I move mine ( or try to at least ) at the 30 day mark. At that age and size, they easily siphon into the bucket I use for transfer. I use larger diameter hoses than airline tubing. What ever is left in the tank is then poured into the bucket as I can't pour directly into the next tank.

 

[Andy Sager]

There are some signs that lead me to believe the hatchery is turning a corner. Some of the re-formed pairs are getting back into a breeding cycle and some new pairs seem to be forming for spawning as well. The big sign, I say with caution, is that some of the spawn from 1/2 Black pair #1 has started free swimming this morning and eating. There are still a number of fry on the floor but they appear to be getting ready to swim opposed to dying. I should know more by tomorrow as today is day 6 since hatching. So once again, the food seems to be the culprit here..... maybe

 

[brennae]

Wow! All this loss due to food. Is it something commercialially available that I would need to worry about with my fish? I know you thought at one time it was a preservative.

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[RRP1501]

Andy, you mentioned about culling the deformed fry. What should I be looking for? I've noticed a few that still look like they are only a couple of days old. Should I look for deformed fins and things of that nature? Doing this though may be the answer I've been looking for because I was fretting over how I was going to get all those fry in the 15g. Was going to put them in the 20 I had for the pair I thought was pairing off in my community tank, but they calmed down, so I figured I was mistaken. WAS! Cleaning my 55 and I saw some stuff on a UV sterilizer and went to wipe it off, when all of a sudden DOHHHH! Those were eggs, and fertilized at that. This pair is the exact opposite of my original breeders. The male is a gold cap and the female is a half black(?) not sure of the type. I'll post a pic tomorrow if I can. Talk about a surprise!


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[Andy Sager]

Wow! All this loss due to food. Is it something commercialially available that I would need to worry about with my fish? I know you thought at one time it was a preservative.

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Again, I believe the food was the issue but I haven't been able to confirm this yet so I don't want to defame anyone just yet. It's not a typical store bought food but another hatchery's breeder flakes. But if it works for them, I may have stopped doing something else as well which was the cause. I just don't know for sure.
In a few posts in a thread on the Angelfish Forum which was about people having the same issue with their fry as I was, there was a belief that there was a missing ingredient to what was being fed and that ingredient was found in the commercial basic foods. That ingredient was a preservative used to prevent some of the vitamins added from decaying over time. Is that the answer? Don't know for sure as the food I switched to also lacks this preservative. HOWEVER, I also started adding back FD tubifex to their dietary routine ( which I had stopped for a while) so it could also have been the additional protein in the diet that is bringing them around. I was feeding the worms almost daily before all this happened but stopped when I went away and never got back into that routine. I also had to buy a can of Omega One food ( which I was feeding when I started this whole adventure) while I was waiting for my new food to come and that DOES have the preservative. So is that the reason it's coming around? I don't know. Let me be clear, so far there is only 1 spawn that has responded and this is from fish that haven't spawned since late March of this year. I still do not have a successful spawn from my weekly or every 10 day spawners yet. Will that make a difference? Who knows? I do have 2 more spawns right now that have yet to hatch. These should help me answer the question but the big problem is they are from pairs that are just forming or their second or third spawns only so that too could be the reason for the problems ( if they have problems.)

So, to sum it all up, if you have problems getting your fry to free swim after hatching and you are using the same method that worked in the past but is not working in the present, then I would consider anything you changed as a possible reason for the result. Go back to what you were doing exactly when it was working and see if it makes a difference.