Wigglers 2: Birth of a hatchery & everything Angels

[Andy Sager]

Andy, you mentioned about culling the deformed fry. What should I be looking for? I've noticed a few that still look like they are only a couple of days old. Should I look for deformed fins and things of that nature? Doing this though may be the answer I've been looking for because I was fretting over how I was going to get all those fry in the 15g. Was going to put them in the 20 I had for the pair I thought was pairing off in my community tank, but they calmed down, so I figured I was mistaken. WAS! Cleaning my 55 and I saw some stuff on a UV sterilizer and went to wipe it off, when all of a sudden DOHHHH! Those were eggs, and fertilized at that. This pair is the exact opposite of my original breeders. The male is a gold cap and the female is a half black(?) not sure of the type. I'll post a pic tomorrow if I can. Talk about a surprise!


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Here are the guidelines I try to adhere to ( and hope everyone else starts to). TAS Library - Conformation Standards for Freshwater Angelfish

In your case, since you are a first timer, I would not be in a hurry to cull just so that you know when the fish are actually done forming their fins and just growing them larger. I would wait until the fry are at least dime sized to cull. Depending on how many fish you actually have, the 15 or 20 is not going to be large enough to grow these fry out. Especially if you save more than a dozen of them. Overcrowding will inhibit their growth and effect their health long term. You will need either more tanks or larger tanks for growing them out. That's Angelfish breeding for ya.

 

[RRP1501]

Here are the guidelines I try to adhere to ( and hope everyone else starts to). TAS Library - Conformation Standards for Freshwater Angelfish

In your case, since you are a first timer, I would not be in a hurry to cull just so that you know when the fish are actually done forming their fins and just growing them larger. I would wait until the fry are at least dime sized to cull. Depending on how many fish you actually have, the 15 or 20 is not going to be large enough to grow these fry out. Especially if you save more than a dozen of them. Overcrowding will inhibit their growth and effect their health long term. You will need either more tanks or larger tanks for growing them out. That's Angelfish breeding for ya.

Andy will 2 20 gallon tanks be ok for this? We Luv Pets is having a $1 per gallon sale starting Saturday. The rub is they only have 10's, 20, 20H, 53 and 75g on sale. And the 53's still aren't in store yet. Hopefully they'll get a 53 in. It's supposed have the footprint of a 40

 

[emilygupps]

Here are the guidelines I try to adhere to ( and hope everyone else starts to). TAS Library - Conformation Standards for Freshwater Angelfish



In your case, since you are a first timer, I would not be in a hurry to cull just so that you know when the fish are actually done forming their fins and just growing them larger. I would wait until the fry are at least dime sized to cull. Depending on how many fish you actually have, the 15 or 20 is not going to be large enough to grow these fry out. Especially if you save more than a dozen of them. Overcrowding will inhibit their growth and effect their health long term. You will need either more tanks or larger tanks for growing them out. That's Angelfish breeding for ya.

^^^learned this the hard way. Seems a 55g is not big enough to grow our 300 babies next batch if we get one I will be the one doing the culling. Probably need to make friends with an Oscar loving person.


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[Andy Sager]

Andy will 2 20 gallon tanks be ok for this? We Luv Pets is having a $1 per gallon sale starting Saturday. The rub is they only have 10's, 20, 20H, 53 and 75g on sale. And the 53's still aren't in store yet. Hopefully they'll get a 53 in. It's supposed have the footprint of a 40

As Emilygupps said, tank size is important and 20 gals just don't really work all that well for a "normal" sized spawn. I would aim for a 75 gal or the 53 gal tank for each spawn you plan on raising. It takes roughly 10-12 weeks for the fry to become salable size so if you are going to try to raise more than 1 spawn at a time, 2- 20s will not do. I am currently using breeder 30 gal tanks ( same length & height as a 20 long just 6" wider) that are on a flow through system and having 12 gals of water changed per day and I am seeing stunting caused by the overcrowding. I experimented with fish from the same spawn where I put 6 into a 20 long non flow through tank where water is changed 2 times per week and the rest in the flow through tank and the size and fin difference is incredible. The less fish in the 20 are much nicer all around their siblings showing that water changes alone do not help the fish grow, space does.
You may want to keep this in mind when tank shopping. As big as you can get is the best choice. Smaller tanks means less fish per tank.

 

[RRP1501]

Thanks guys! I don't know what I'd do without you all!


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[Andy Sager]

As I had hoped, the rest of the fry came off the floor this morning and started to feed. There are about 150-200 fry ATM which, if you consider that their last spawn produced 6 living fry, is a major step forward. So I guess I can start for now. Let's see how many get to the next phase.

I also seem to see less "poo" on the bottom of the tanks as Cobalt claims their food will do. I'd still like to see some of the other pairs have successful spawns before I can claim this new food as my cure. Spawns keep coming so I will start taking eggs from the proven successful breeders again to see if they are back to "normal" yet or if they still need more time. With so many pairs being partially or completely new/young fish, it's hard to determine what's what with them yet.

 

[emilygupps]

Yay Andy!!

The LFS took ALL the babies off of our hands so we are down all our fry just in time for s five day vacation. I'm fairly certain that out of 5 adult angels we only have 1 female, she is in the community 55 with two other suspected males and can't seem to decide whom she likes more. I'm hoping she takes her time deciding we need to rethink our fry plan.



This is the ONE baby we kept we also got a solid black juvi the same size for free from the LFS. They live together in a 30g maybe they'll pair up.

Andy what do you think, honest opinion about our chosen baby?


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[Fishobsessed7]

I really like the pattern it has!


Fishobsessed7

Money Can't Buy Happiness, But It Can Buy Fish Which Is Pretty Much The Same Thing

 

[Andy Sager]

Yay Andy!!

The LFS took ALL the babies off of our hands so we are down all our fry just in time for s five day vacation. I'm fairly certain that out of 5 adult angels we only have 1 female, she is in the community 55 with two other suspected males and can't seem to decide whom she likes more. I'm hoping she takes her time deciding we need to rethink our fry plan.

View attachment 278667

This is the ONE baby we kept we also got a solid black juvi the same size for free from the LFS. They live together in a 30g maybe they'll pair up.

Andy what do you think, honest opinion about our chosen baby?


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This is why you need to have outlets that can take large quantities of fish when you breed Angels. The nice thing is that at some point, they will do it again providing the fish stay healthy and sell. So congrats on the first one. You need to make more.

One of the nice things coming out of the mixed variety Angelfish is that you can get some pretty interesting patterns on some fish. This striped one is a good example. Does it do the same thing on the other side tho? It would carry more salability if it does. You could call it a "belted" Angel that way. ( I get a cut of the profits if you trademark that name )Then again, if it did, you would need to work the fish so that you get a number of the subsequent fry to have the same appearance. THAT is not always the easiest thing to do. I was recently talking to my LFS who buys my Angels and we were discussing some of the interesting patterns I have been sending him. He brought out an interesting point: The big challenge is to get a fish with totally different markings on the 2 sides of the fish. For example, a black side with white spots with a white side with black spots. I'm not up for that anymore. I'll just stick with my occasional oddball. Another thing is that as the fish matures, it may add some more color or pattern to itself. I have that with a number of the fry from the first Red Cap- Gold Marble spawn. I had a number of them that had just a black cap to them only to have more black areas come in as they get older. My friend remarked about the black caps so I was saving them for him. Now, I will need to refer back to the pics to get the ones he liked and hopefully, I can discern which was which. But getting back to your question, it looks like a nice fish to keep for future breeding as long as it stays in the correct proportions. (They can change as they get older. )

Hope that answers it for ya.

 

[Andy Sager]

Well I am happy to announce that the fry are now 2 days swimming and 4 feedings in and doing okay so far. Hopefully this will be the start of a better future. All the other spawns I had left with the parents are sadly now gone but the last spawn with the Black and Black Lace is on day 1 1/2 so if the eggs are still doing okay in the morning, I'll pull them to see if I can get some swimmers there too.
On the Guppy front, I do see some new fry in the group tank of guppies and the males were pulled from the trios I set up separately. I just added some more floating plants for the females to feel secure enough to birth their babies so hopefully that will happen in the next few days. These females are much larger than the females my friend's fish have become so I am trying to get back some size to go with the Black coloring. Hopefully this will work or get the ball rolling.

I'm now preparing to set up tanks for the Sterbai and Albino cories. Hopefully I can get them to spawn as well in this place. It might be too warm for them? Can't control that. Hopefully the cooler water when I do water changes will do the trick.

I started really going through the tanks and culling the fish I had been saving. I'm noticing a number of fish from 1 pair that look great as smalls & mediums but as they get to a larger size, their bodies and fins just don't look right. It has to be the genetics because there are other fish in the same tanks that look perfect ( or as perfect as they can be at this point.) I can see this is going to be a loooooooooooong process to correct this.

 

[RRP1501]

Yay Andy!!

The LFS took ALL the babies off of our hands so we are down all our fry just in time for s five day vacation. I'm fairly certain that out of 5 adult angels we only have 1 female, she is in the community 55 with two other suspected males and can't seem to decide whom she likes more. I'm hoping she takes her time deciding we need to rethink our fry plan.

View attachment 278667

This is the ONE baby we kept we also got a solid black juvi the same size for free from the LFS. They live together in a 30g maybe they'll pair up.

Andy what do you think, honest opinion about our chosen baby?


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That's a beautiful Angel Emily! How's "Banded" for a brand?

 

[emilygupps]

This is why you need to have outlets that can take large quantities of fish when you breed Angels. The nice thing is that at some point, they will do it again providing the fish stay healthy and sell. So congrats on the first one. You need to make more.



One of the nice things coming out of the mixed variety Angelfish is that you can get some pretty interesting patterns on some fish. This striped one is a good example. Does it do the same thing on the other side tho? It would carry more salability if it does. You could call it a "belted" Angel that way. ( I get a cut of the profits if you trademark that name )Then again, if it did, you would need to work the fish so that you get a number of the subsequent fry to have the same appearance. THAT is not always the easiest thing to do. I was recently talking to my LFS who buys my Angels and we were discussing some of the interesting patterns I have been sending him. He brought out an interesting point: The big challenge is to get a fish with totally different markings on the 2 sides of the fish. For example, a black side with white spots with a white side with black spots. I'm not up for that anymore. I'll just stick with my occasional oddball. Another thing is that as the fish matures, it may add some more color or pattern to itself. I have that with a number of the fry from the first Red Cap- Gold Marble spawn. I had a number of them that had just a black cap to them only to have more black areas come in as they get older. My friend remarked about the black caps so I was saving them for him. Now, I will need to refer back to the pics to get the ones he liked and hopefully, I can discern which was which. But getting back to your question, it looks like a nice fish to keep for future breeding as long as it stays in the correct proportions. (They can change as they get older. )



Hope that answers it for ya.

Awww I'm blushing! Way to go for a first try.

The black anal and dorsal fins are the same on both sides but I don't think that spot near the tail is on both. I regret getting rid of an other of its batch mates. It was white with black fins on one side and a spot over the eye and then completely white on the other side. He got caught up with the first "test" batch for the LFS. The second set from this pair was not nearly as pretty. The LFS was so excited about him I didn't want to ask for it back I also got some realllly nice smokey ones. Prettier than the mom, not only 1 solid white like the dad. White must be recessive.

I know what you mean about changing color! My blue pearl scale got some random black spots as he matured. And a black marble I have randomly developed a gold cap. I WISH that fish weren't such a jerk. He would make beautiful babies with my smokey female.


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[emilygupps]

Well I am happy to announce that the fry are now 2 days swimming and 4 feedings in and doing okay so far. Hopefully this will be the start of a better future. All the other spawns I had left with the parents are sadly now gone but the last spawn with the Black and Black Lace is on day 1 1/2 so if the eggs are still doing okay in the morning, I'll pull them to see if I can get some swimmers there too.

On the Guppy front, I do see some new fry in the group tank of guppies and the males were pulled from the trios I set up separately. I just added some more floating plants for the females to feel secure enough to birth their babies so hopefully that will happen in the next few days. These females are much larger than the females my friend's fish have become so I am trying to get back some size to go with the Black coloring. Hopefully this will work or get the ball rolling.



I'm now preparing to set up tanks for the Sterbai and Albino cories. Hopefully I can get them to spawn as well in this place. It might be too warm for them? Can't control that. Hopefully the cooler water when I do water changes will do the trick.



I started really going through the tanks and culling the fish I had been saving. I'm noticing a number of fish from 1 pair that look great as smalls & mediums but as they get to a larger size, their bodies and fins just don't look right. It has to be the genetics because there are other fish in the same tanks that look perfect ( or as perfect as they can be at this point.) I can see this is going to be a loooooooooooong process to correct this.

Post pictures of guppies??

I too have albino cory fry the LFS is going to take about 8 of them off my hands to lighten up the load on our 20long display tank. Mine have not spawned all summer. But I got like 1 spawn a month from Jan-may. I'm betting it's the heat. The adults are so peaceful even with 4 week old fry. They just eat right along with them.

Culling fish is hard. I'm making friends with some Oscar owners for that reason. I won't have to watch.


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[emilygupps]

That's a beautiful Angel Emily! How's "Banded" for a brand?

Thank you for the compliment! I really like belted. But I think I will name her BANDit. ?


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[Andy Sager]

Today has yielded no more answers and added new questions. Mr. Studdly's ( the black male) spawn now only has about 5 or 6 eggs that are still alive. So is it the new female ( this is only her 2nd spawn ever) or is he getting to old to produce or is it because it's his daughter he's spawning with making the gene pool sucky? Can't say for sure.
On the bright side, a new pair of Marbles spawned in the community grow out tank of future breeders. This now makes 2 pairs that have come out of that tank, both marbles. And to add to the excitement of the day, the other new pair of marbles are spawning right now, half black pair #3 spawned this morning and a barred marble- Barred marble veil pair spawned while I was at lunch. This goes along with the free swimming fry still swimming. It would be great if at least one of these new spawns would get to free swimming stage so I know I am on the right track to fixing this problem.

 

[Andy Sager]

More spawns today but I only pulled 1 to see if it makes a difference. I'm not happy with the death rate of the 1/2 black eggs but am holding out hope for some hatch. I just need some fry to free swim. At this point, I don't care how many.
The marble's eggs are holding steady so far. Keeping my fingers tightly crossed for a successful ending for these.

The big score for today was at the flea market. Found a seller with a gallon jar and a 1 1/2 gal square plexi container. Both are perfect for hatching out eggs or the square for any spawn that has just a few fry ( like my last pleco spawn. ) Got them both for a grand total of $2.00! SCORE!!!!! A little bit of cleaning and they should be good to go.

Can't wait to see what happens tomorrow.

 

[RRP1501]

okay guys, I don't want to sound to dumb, but can anybody tell me what type of Angel is? I've heard chocolate, half black and so on. My fry are getting to be about 1/2", a little bigger and they'll have to go to the big tank. I got the 53gallon tank and will be setting it up tomorrow. It's 3'Lx 18"Dx 21"T.


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[Andy Sager]

View attachment 278820okay guys, I don't want to sound to dumb, but can anybody tell me what type of Angel is? I've heard chocolate, half black and so on. My fry are getting to be about 1/2", a little bigger and they'll have to go to the big tank. I got the 53gallon tank and will be setting it up tomorrow. It's 3'Lx 18"Dx 21"T.


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It's what is commonly called a smokey. Chocolates are related but have deeper coloring that covers the entire body.
If you go to the Angelfish society page ( http://www.theangelfishsociety.org/forum/content.php/3-angelfish-genetics) the list of articles is all about the different color forms of Angelfish.

 

[coralbandit]

http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=278820&thumb=1&d=1443982111

That is a great picture with the fry in the background!

 

[RRP1501]

Well guys, I've got a problem with my fry. It's 2:53 AM and I just did a 75%water change. I got up at 2:00 for some reason but didn't know why. I smelled a strong sulphur odor when I walked past the tank. Looked inside and all the fry where bunched up in the corner behind the filter. So I did the change and it smells better. I'm completely confused. I did a 50% yesterday and smelled sulphur but thought it was coming up from the drain. Must not of been. I added some salt in the tank and have said a bunch of prayers for them. I'll do another change in the morning. They're swimming around a little more but I have no clue what happened. I use RO/DI water and the filter and water checked out okay. It's all in Gods hands right now. Just hope all will be ok!


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