2nd Time Around Fishless Cycling 120gal Tank

[Ann7667]

I'm reading that manuscript. WOW . . . complicated and over my head, but I'm reading to figure out what to do and not necessarily to understand.
Anyway, I thought I'd just peek at the Amm.
I dosed Amm up to 4ppm yesterday 7/22 at 9am; pH=7.6
Today 7/23 at 9am the Amm was at 2ppm; pH=7.0
Today 7/23 at 8:30pm the Amm is at .50.; pH= 6.6

Could it be the sand I have in the aquarium making the pH drop? It is rinsed pool filter sand - 100 pounds of it. I bet that could be doing it. It's really the only other thing in there besides the water, ammonia I'm adding and the BB babies.
I think I'll take some of that sand out of the tank, put it in a glass with tap water, test the pH and then test it again in the morning and if it has dropped - the problem is the sand! I bet it's the sand.

So, if the problem is the sand, what if I do this? . . . I take the sand out of there and cycle the aquarium with NO sand. Then while the tank is cycling, I drive to the beach and get some sand (only 1 hour and 15 minutes away). I had purchased beach $and and used it in an aquarium from the past and I did not have a problem with pH in that one. If a policeman arreste me for taking the sand, I'm sure if I told him my story, he would understand. Anyway I've never seen any police patrolling the beach in Oregon - not many people are there.

Do you think it could be the sand?

 

[zparticle]

Apparently pool filter sand is "pure" silica and therefore shouldn't affect the pH. I'm no expert though, I'm sure others will respond.

 

[Ann7667]

Okay . . . this is what I did.
Tonight, I scooped some sand out of the tank, added some tap water being careful not to disturb the sand and took a pH reading and it was pH 7.2.
Then I stirred up the sand, let it settle and took another reading and it was pH 6.8.
I'll take another reading in the morning, but I think it's the sand.
Would love your opinion, too eco 23.

 

[eco23]

Hi Ann

I've never personally heard of PFS causing any issue like that (but that doesn't mean it's impossible). It's a good idea you have to test it in a bucket to isolate it.

Do both of your tanks have the same substrate?

Have I already gotten you to leave a glass of water sitting out overnight with an air stone in it? I think I did...I just get all these threads mixed up, lol.

I think I'd recommend against using beach sand though unless you research some efficient sanitation methods. Using things from nature that aren't properly prepared can cause all sorts of issues like fungus, parasites, algae, and even pollution from the beach. I'd be very cautious about it.

 

[Ann7667]

Eco23 I just can't imagine what else is causing the problem if it is not the sand.
Both tanks do not have the same substrate. The tank the fish are in also has sand but it was purchased beach sand at the LFS.
Thank you for the tip about the beach sand. I will purchase some sand for my aquarium at the LFS instead of going to the beach and getting some there.
No, you did not suggest an airstone in a glass overnight for me. I just did the quick test of the sand in a glass of water to see if the pH changed and it did when I stirred the sand up a little bit.
Thanks for your help.

 

[eco23]

Here's what I'd do...

Take 2 buckets, both filled with tap water, one with the substrate, one without. If you have 2 extra air stones throw them in, otherwise just stir them around occasionally. Test them after 24 hours and see if it's the same reading in both. It's likely your pH is just naturally that low, and there is something in your water that is buffering it...which will gas out and give you the actual pH value after sitting out for a while.

I apologize, I must've gotten mixed up and thought I already had you sit a glass of tap water out for a while.

The fact will remain that it still needs to be buffered regardless of our little test. From what I understand...aragonite is better than CC, and the buffering products are debatable. The article I linked recommends a Seachem product...but remember they also happen to sell that product, lol.

I'll be interested in hearing the results...I have a feeling they'll be the same.

Hope you had fun at the BBQ!

 

[Ann7667]

Hi eco23,
Ok, I will do that test. I do have 2 buckets and I'll put substrate in one and none in the other bucket. I do not have extra air stones and pumps, so I'll just stir it around a little.
That should be interesting to see what happens.
I'll let you know tomorrow night what is happening.
The bar-b-q was nice. There was a little two year old boy who told me he loved me and a dog that I think hated me because he kept growling at me and I love dogs . . . go figure!
I'm getting my buckets now.

 

[eco23]

The dog realized you're a fish person, lol. Luckily my little dogs love watching my Corys dash all over the tank so they don't hold it against me

I'll keep an eye out for your results tomorrow

 

[Ann7667]

Okay then, the buckets are set up and cooking. But I'm convinced it's the sand because when I stirred up the sand, just seconds after I got the 7.whatever reading, and tested it within one minute after stirring and got a 6.8 reading - sounds convincing to me that it's the sand.
But I'm doing the buckets now too.

 

[librarygirl]

Quite the mystery this is Your ammonia seems to be dropping nicely though!

Is the PH in your other tank(s) stable? If so and not this one, then yes it could be something in this tank or lacking from it that's causing the swings. If your other tanks swing too then it might just be the water.

Not that I really know much....Listen to Eco

 

[Ann7667]

Bucket Report

Thank you Library Girl. I really like that the ammonia drops, too, but the pH is just such a problem. I know I'm no expert here either. I saw that "Z" cycle his tank in a couple of weeks and can't figure out why mine is being such a problem.
eco23 - here is the bucket report -
Sand Bucket - pH=6.8
No Sand Bucket - pH=7.2
I didn't measure pH last night; I assume it was 7.4-7.6 in both buckets. But whatever it was, they were both the same and the sand bucket did fall a little further. However, I did give the sand a stir before I took the reading. Was that cheating ?
If I need aragonite, how much do I need? I can get a 20 lb bag or 40 lb bag. Do I just put it in the aquarium on top or incorporate it into the current sand or do I take some or all of the current sand out.
Your thoughts?

 

[eco23]

Thank you Library Girl. I really like that the ammonia drops, too, but the pH is just such a problem. I know I'm no expert here either. I saw that "Z" cycle his tank in a couple of weeks and can't figure out why mine is being such a problem.
eco23 - here is the bucket report -
Sand Bucket - pH=6.8
No Sand Bucket - pH=7.2
I didn't measure pH last night; I assume it was 7.4-7.6 in both buckets. But whatever it was, they were both the same and the sand bucket did fall a little further. However, I did give the sand a stir before I took the reading. Was that cheating ?
If I need aragonite, how much do I need? I can get a 20 lb bag or 40 lb bag. Do I just put it in the aquarium on top or incorporate it into the current sand or do I take some or all of the current sand out.
Your thoughts?

I'd keep the little experiment going for a while since it hasn't been very long and the sample with the sand was set up a bit longer.

A 20lb bag of aragonite would be more than enough. It might be worth researching the Seachem buffer that site talks about, but since they happen to sell it I can't entirely trust their review. I simply prefer natural products that are a constant source instead of having to constantly add a product.

If you do get the aragonite, the empty tank will be perfect to experiment in to figure out how much you need. I wouldn't use it in the established tank yet until you can find a happy balance so you don't cause sudden fluctuations with the fish you have.

Either way, putting it in the filter is the most efficient way to disperse it through the water IMO/E.

 

[Ann7667]

Okay, nice to see your post so quickly. When there is actually another action I can take to solve my problem, it gives me a little hope - well that "red guy" is demonstrating BIG hope and I hope he's right.

The bucket sand sample was started at the same time as the no-sand bucket sample. The first sand sample was sand in an 8 oz. glass which I tossed after the sampling was finished.
So both buckets were started at the same time and after the sand-in-the-glass sample.

Boy - there is so much I don't know. So you put the aragonite IN the FILTER! - OH that's easy.
So I'm assuming that (since the cc is not doing anything anyway) I remove the cc and replace it with the aragonite, or should I just leave the cc in compartment since there are some BBs living on it and replace maybe half of it with the aragonite? How much aragonite are we looking to put into the filter to begin with. The compartment that holds the cc measures 6.5" w. x 6.5" d. x 3.75" H.
I'll hold off on the SeaChem buffer. Maybe I can do this without it.
Looking for your response. My LFS is closed today so I will pick up the aragonite tomorrow. He has it!
Thank you!

 

[eco23]

I'd say use it in place of the CC, though I don't think it really matters...just make sure you have a fine mesh media bag so the sand doesn't go blowing out everywhere. I've never used aragonite, only CC...so feel free to research and verify everything I say

I'm interested to see how far your pH drops. If you were only dropping down a bit, it's nothing to worry about...but when it's hitting off the charts low like in the other tank, IMO it's definitely something worthy of buffering...especially during a cycle.

Doing the bucket test will give us a benchmark, but it doesn't tell anywhere near the whole story. There is no nitrification happening in the bucket, and the bacteria uses up a ton of the buffers which can cause the pH to absolutely plummet.

For example, if your water fully gasses out and stops at 6.6 in the bucket...in the tank the the nitrification will continue to use up the compounds in the water and can cause absolute crashes which are bad for the fish and bad for the bacteria. In fact, the lower pH drops, the slower nitrification occurs. It's believed that when you start approaching 6, nitrification stops completely which would be super bad news because it basically would leave you with a totally uncycled tank.

I'm long winded, but the moral is I think we 100% need to buffer the water. CC didn't work, aragonite seems to be the next in line...but you're free to find some info if there's something even better than aragonite so you can skip a step and go right to the winner.

I know the SW guys use RO/DI water which totally strips everything from the water...but they use a product that restores all the minerals, buffers, trace elements, etc... That might be a product worth considering...but info on that is something I don't have.

Sorry to make you read all that

 

[Ann7667]

Please don't apologize ever for being long winded. I really do appreciate explanations and information, especially when I am treading in unknown territory. And every time I think I know a little but, something happens that puts me back in the "" huh, where am I mode. Also I wouldn't be so into fish if I didn't like finding solutions.
Actually that kind of fine mesh does exist (which will hold the sand and not let it blow out) because I have on small net that when I pick up sand in it, the sand cannot get out of the net - extremely fine mesh. So I'll take my net with me to the LFS tomorrow and look for mesh bag like that OR I'll go to a fabric store and see if their netting is that fine. So I'll do that tomorrow.
My LFS might know about the product the salt water guys use that restores the minerals, etc. in the water. I'll get that from him.
I don't mind reading long emails on this topic. Thank you for going to the trouble. I'm sure others are being helped as well.

 

[Ann7667]

Alert pH climbing!

The pH is climbing. I was so into the bucket experiment that I didn't even test my water this morning in the aquarium.
So - 7/24 at 1pm
pH=7.6 The CC is working!!!!!
Amm=0 (so I dosed it up to 4ppm)
NitrItes=0
NitrAtes=20+ (definitely is an orange color; definitely not red so it is not at 30, but I would call it a hearty 20).
Temp=87.9 deg.

So maybe I don't need the aragonite and maybe I can empty the buckets - it's time for the fishes Sunday water change. (Sundays and Wednesdays)

I did not record in my log when I first added the crushed coral. I'm going to look that up in these posts and then see what the relationship is to adding CC, adding it the 2nd time and the pH fluctuations.

The last time I checked the pH was yesterday morning 7/23 and it was at 7.0 - it had gone like this:
7/21=6.6
7/22=7.6
7/23=7.0
7/24=7.6
Odd that it's jumping all around, but it brought itself up to 7.6 and I'm happy about that. Let's see what happens over the next few days. I'll hold off on the aragonite for right now.

The pH has been going up when I dose the Amm to 4.0 and going down when the Amm is down, EXCEPT for today, when it climbed from 7.0 to 7.6 while the Amm went from 2.0 to 0.
Do you know what this means? It's good . . . right?

 

[eco23]

It looks good

Couple things to check...let's see if the ammo can drop to zero with zero no2 in 24 hours...and make sure the pH is staying relatively stable. If all that happens...fishy time!

My CC jumped the pH up within minutes...but as long as it's working for you eventually...there will be no complaints from me. Maybe since it's such a big tank thats the difference.

 

[Ann7667]

History of adding CC & result on pH

I found when I first started adding CC.
7/18: pH=6.6; Am=2.0; NI=1.0; NA=20; Temp=89
I put a bag in the bottom of the tank & turned down temp.
7/19: pH=0; Am=0; NI=0; NA=40; Temp=88
I put another bag in the bottom of the tank & dosed Am4.0
7/20: pH=6.6; Am=2.0; NI=2.0; NA=30; Temp=86
7/21: pH=6.6; Am=0; NI=0; NA=20; Temp=87
Took both bags of CC off the bottom of the tank and put them in the filter.
7/22: pH=7.6; Am=4.0 (didn't test the rest)
Did a 70% water change and dosed Am to 4.0 and added one more bag of CC to the filter which now comprises 1/3 of media in filter.
7/23: pH=7.0; Am=2.0; NI=.25; NA=20; Temp 84.9
7/24: pH=7.6; Am=0; NI=0; NA=20-30; Temp 87.9
dosed Am to 4.0. at 1pm PT.

So that's what's been happening. I think we are going to be okay with the pH now.
Thoughts?

 

[Ann7667]

I will check the numbers again tomorrow at 1pm PT.
That would be REALLY NICE if I am getting close to fishy time. I put another post in condensing what has happened with the AM/pH over the last week.
I think you are right about the size of the tank. It just takes a little longer, I think, for it to react because of its size.
My LFS told me that for water conditioner, it would be a good idea to move up to the conditioner they use for ponds because of the size of my tank.

 

[eco23]

Kinda looks like the water was trying to gas out and drop, but the CC held it from going too low, then raised it back up. Once it dissolves efficiently I think it'll start doing a better job. I'm leaning towards the fact we've found a solution

I've got to head out for a while...see ya!