Cories and salt dosing

[Delapool]

Pretty simple.

Who has dosed salt with cories (or any other scaleless fish) and to what level / how long?

Looking mainly at usage as a med.

 

[Reefer James]

I saw salt dosing and made sure I came here to tell you do not even consider it...

I'm going to highly encourage you to read this Using salt in the freshwater aquarium - Algone

EDIT: Here's the summary

In Summary:

Salt does interfere with the osmotic regulation of fish and plants. It should be left alone; nature regulated that part itself, by creating freshwater, brackish and saltwater fish.

The low beneficial amount of salt, mentioned above will not have any benefits in addition to water conditioners and/or stress coats already used for water treatments.

It is good to know about the benefits of salt and the understanding of the mechanisms involved. It comes in handy, should the nitrites get out of control or as possible treatment for parasites (salt bath). A first aid kid, for sure.

And last, disease prevention and cure. This is largely if not mainly based on enhancing the slime coat or regulatory osmotic control, but again stress protecting additives and water conditioners have the same effect.

Parasite prevention? Yes – in theory. But it is not justified. The long-term use of salt in the aquarium will have more negative aspects then benefits. Use of salt as a first aid tool should be determined on an individual basis, as there are no real guidelines on how to use it safely and effectively.

The immediate threat of salt to fish and plants is greater then that of any potential long term benefits that may or may not be gained by its use.

 

[coralbandit]

I saw salt dosing and made sure I came here to tell you do not even consider it...

I'm going to highly encourage you to read this Using salt in the freshwater aquarium - Algone

EDIT: Here's the summary

This is why I am NOT the salt guy.
It has it's place.
IMO with people who are scared of real meds or can't understand how to use them correctly.
As quickly as many will say that formalin, or malachelite green would never happen in nature it has never rained salt either!
Does it work as a treatment?
I would say yes by all others say, but not from my own experience.

 

[Delapool]

I saw salt dosing and made sure I came here to tell you do not even consider it...

I'm going to highly encourage you to read this Using salt in the freshwater aquarium - Algone

EDIT: Here's the summary

Thanks for the link but I'm looking at short term use as a med with scaleless fish. Basically if scaleless fish are indeed more sensitive to salt.

Not long term dosing.

 

[Delapool]

This is why I am NOT the salt guy.
It has it's place.
IMO with people who are scared of real meds or can't understand how to use them correctly.
As quickly as many will say that formalin, or malachelite green would never happen in nature it has never rained salt either!
Does it work as a treatment?
I would say yes by all others say, but not from my own experience.

Thanks for the comments.

And to head off another discussion on natural vs unnatural meds I'm not interested in that either.

I'll kick off but can't relate salt dosing details on cories specifically. Which I'm really interested in as this has come up several times now in threads.

I've had catfish in salt for several weeks at 2 to 3 tablespoons per 5 gallons. No issues I could see.

 

[coralbandit]

On the cory I found this(before I linked the wiki on cory and salt)!

Cories are sensitive to medication. Years ago, when tests were done to test the salt-tolerance of freshwater fishes, Corydoras died first. Malachite green will poison Cories before any other fishes are affected; it took me years to learn never to use Malachite green on a Cory cat. I pass this on to you


Taken from:
Genus Corydoras: general notes | The Skeptical Aquarist
The notion that all scaless fish are created equal can not even be considered IMO.
what fish can tolerate long term and in treatment applications are two different things.
I am not the salt guy,but if a case ever came up for me to use salt it would be for nitrite poisoning(brown blood).
As a skin irritant to deal with parasites I will never use salt to cure ich for ANY of my fish!
It is a choice I make and say out loud.
There are meds that are proven(not theorized) to work.
That being said I know I started this all by showing that salt is not the worst thing in the world for cories in treatment application.
Looks like MG has it beat(and I like MG!)

 

[Reefer James]

I do not think you even read the link if you're going to go ahead with salt. Did you scroll over the part where it says salt does not evaporate and will remain in the aquarium unless you do significant water changes? Consider doing a salt bath.

Why do you need salt? What is your intended use for it? What is your cory actually suffering from? I implore you to consider more humane medications..

 

[Delapool]

I do not think you even read the link if you're going to go ahead with salt. Did you scroll over the part where it says salt does not evaporate and will remain in the aquarium unless you do significant water changes? Consider doing a salt bath.

Why do you need salt? What is your intended use for it? What is your cory actually suffering from? I implore you to consider more humane medications..

I did re-read it and it didn't answer my thread question. I'm also well aware of salt not evaporating.

In answer to your second question the thread is simply as stated. I never said I needed it. Your last comment on humane medications is intriguing however also not what I'm after.

 

[Delapool]

On the cory I found this(before I linked the wiki on cory and salt)!

Cories are sensitive to medication. Years ago, when tests were done to test the salt-tolerance of freshwater fishes, Corydoras died first. Malachite green will poison Cories before any other fishes are affected; it took me years to learn never to use Malachite green on a Cory cat. I pass this on to you


Taken from:
Genus Corydoras: general notes | The Skeptical Aquarist
The notion that all scaless fish are created equal can not even be considered IMO.
what fish can tolerate long term and in treatment applications are two different things.
I am not the salt guy,but if a case ever came up for me to use salt it would be for nitrite poisoning(brown blood).
As a skin irritant to deal with parasites I will never use salt to cure ich for ANY of my fish!
It is a choice I make and say out loud.
There are meds that are proven(not theorized) to work.
That being said I know I started this all by showing that salt is not the worst thing in the world for cories in treatment application.
Looks like MG has it beat(and I like MG!)

Yeah, I mean I appreciate the thoughts as always but what I want to know is if salt has or hasn't caused an issue with cories. It's pretty specific this thread otherwise we'll just go around in circles. I mean anything higher than 1 tablespoon salt per gallon stresses me out but if I don't ask, we'll never know what happened in real life.

 

[Mebbid]

The problem with this is, it's really hard to say whether corys died of salt or something else.

In short, we really need the source from the article that was posted earlier. Shame on Skeptical Aquarist for not giving sources for the supplied information.

 

[Delapool]

I'll try some web searches on this out interest. I'm pretty sure I've seen low level salt dosing and cories in threads so will try doing a search. Hopefully find something. Usually it's pretty tough going though (like betas and Pimafix).

 

[Mebbid]

I'll try some web searches on this out interest. I'm pretty sure I've seen low level salt dosing and cories in threads so will try doing a search. Hopefully find something. Usually it's pretty tough going though (like betas and Pimafix).

I looked for a little bit but it was the usual junk on forums with people repeating the mantra over and over again. I couldnt find any actual experiments.

 

[Delapool]

Unfortunately they are not a "pest". I found one on goldfish very quickly.

Same problem, easy to find posts but no actual experiment. Will post if I find anything. I've come across a few interesting papers but nothing specific.

Looks like this pops up over the years, shame there has been no study on it.

julii corys and the "why ?" of salt sensitivity ? - PlanetCatfish.com

 

[Delapool]

The problem with this is, it's really hard to say whether corys died of salt or something else.

In short, we really need the source from the article that was posted earlier. Shame on Skeptical Aquarist for not giving sources for the supplied information.

I think I have found it for the source. Details below. Debating if I should buy it but the latest copy I can find is 1966 which is decades old. Not sure.


Salt | The Skeptical Aquarist

"Salt is Nature's remedy for many ills," wrote William T. Innes in Exotic Aquarium Fishes, 1935,

Years ago, William T. Innes reported that when a range of freshwater fishes were exposed to salt baths, the first to die were Corydoras.

Exotic Aquarium Fishes Hardcover – 1966


Exotic Aquarium Fishes: William T. Innes: Amazon.com: Books


On another note this may have been some early work:

Salt-tolerance of Fresh-water Fish Groups in Relation to Zoogeographical Problems, by George S. Myers

 

[Delapool]

Man, hit the wrong key and lost a lot of typing.

As well as trying to find data on cories, I've been trying to find anything at all on other fish to see what the upper and lower limits are.

So far


Salinity Tolerance of Goldfish

"Under chronic low-salinity conditions, the goldfish showed high levels of survival at salinities of 5 and 10 ppt, but significant mortality at salinities of 15 and 20 ppt." So say 5ppt = 0.5%.

https://www.ehp.qld.gov.au/water/pdf/potential-impacts-sal-tur.pdf

Table 3 (lowest tolerance I could find was)
"East Queensland Rainbowfish 4 400 μS cm-1" maybe around 0.4%. Not sure on the conversion there.

So anyways the search continues. I don't know how others do it. This seems tough going.

Edit - should mention this is not saying good news for salt dosing or anything. Just capturing what info is out there.

 

[Delapool]

Think I'll give it another day and then call it quits.

Getting some hits using the search "[FONT=&quot]salinity tolerance Callichthyidae corydoras". I'm starting to suspect some work has been done but it is buried in difficult to get to research papers.

I also came across an article that had cories being bred for aquariums in Israel. If true, I wonder how much "store-bred" fish have shifted in salt sensitivity.

Anyways, came across one reference below. I've just typed the sentence out as I've found sometimes these links only last for a certain amount of time. No other details or references so not great but it took an hour to find it so I'm going to post it

Have found another article but having trouble getting access. It's only $6 for 48hrs so I might just buy it and see if any use.
[/FONT]
https://books.google.com.au/books?i...EwATgK#v=onepage&q=salinity corydoras&f=false


[FONT=&quot] Clinical Veterinary Advisor, Birds and Exotic Pets,1: Clinical Veterinary Advisor
p512 – Emergency Care

Post-Procedure

“Some plant and fish species are anecdotally considered sensitive to salinity treatments, but recent evidence suggests that others (e.g. Corydoras catfish) may be able to tolerate 0.5 to 2 ppt”
[/FONT]

 

[Delapool]

Given up. Just getting the same sites now.

 

[Delapool]

Looks like I found a little bit of information. Posting link so isn't lost.


http://www.uel.br/laboratorios/lefa/Freire%20et%20al.,%202008.pdf


With those freshwater species for which no previous information on their salt tolerance was available, quick [FONT=AdvTT50a2f13e.I]in vivo [/FONT]osmoregulatory experiments were performed. No thorough investigation of salinity acclimation capabilities was intended, but only a brief comparative investigation upon 7 h of steep salinity increase, from fresh water to diluted sea water of salinity 15‰. Thus, individuals of the freshwater crab [FONT=AdvTT50a2f13e.I]A. schmitti[/FONT], and the freshwater fish [FONT=AdvTT50a2f13e.I]Geophagus brasiliensis [/FONT]were submitted for 7 h to 15‰ sea water (obtained by diluting full-strength sea water with filtered tap water). The freshwater fishes [FONT=AdvTT50a2f13e.I]Corydoras [/FONT][FONT=AdvTT50a2f13e.I]ehrhardti [/FONT]and [FONT=AdvTT50a2f13e.I]Mimagoniates microlepis [/FONT]began to show locomotory
impairment already after ~2 h of exposure, and have thus been sacrificed and sampled after 4:20 h. Two or 3 individuals were exposed to water of increased salinity in a
1-liter aquarium, with experiments performed in duplicate or triplicate. Control individuals for the [FONT=AdvTT50a2f13e.I]in vivo [/FONT]experiments were sampled directly from their stock aquaria (fresh water).

 

[Delapool]

Generic search on "salinity tolerance armoured catfish". Not very specific to cories but links attached. I think it was the last one that had a reference to cories that I tracked to the article in the post above.


http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/aqc.1210/abstract


http://www.sms.si.edu/irlspec/Hoplosternum_littorale.htm



http://www.researchgate.net/profile/Carolina_Freire/publication/228476526_The_handling_of_salt_by_the_neotropical_cultured_freshwater_catfish_Rhamdia_quelen/links/0fcfd511402c508a25000000.pdf

 

[Delapool]

That's it, I'll keep an eye out but I'm done. I thought for sure this would of been studied more.

As mentioned above, not all catfish are the same so hard to even correlate between catfish. On the links above specific to cories, one is just a passing paragraph and the second went to 15% sea water straight away whereas would have been better to see the salinity dose gradually increased (in my non-scientific opinion ).

It was interesting to read of the studies though. I only really skimmed, will have to read again properly next weekend.

The internet, bah, humbug