The Maturing Cycle... because people on gere have funny ideas about it.

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Ok so its broken down instead of built whats your point?

My point is, you don't seem to have much of a grasp of basic chemistry. You don't seem to know that ammonia is a nitrogenous compound or that charcoal and CO2 are different. By your logic, putting diamonds in the substrate would be good for plants, too.
 
Plants dont benefit from bacteria is like saying fish don't benefit from food. Watch "Dirt the movie" its on netflix... There is little diffrence between land plants and aquatic plants.

You obviously said plants benefit from carbon, and it's more about bactiera.

Lol carbon yes helps plants... But the point isn't about plants its about maturing the tank... So its more about bacteria. All the coal does is provide extra space for them. The carbon is just a bonus... Its like getting a free sunday at friendlies when you get a kids meal.
 
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You obviously said plants benefit from carbon, and it's more about bactiera.

Forget the stupid carbon... Its about bacteria if you wanna talk about carbon start another thread. Im talking about bacteria which has little to do with carbon. The coal itself is the magic art of bacteria growth... The carbon is just a bonus. Thats it.
 
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Ok, in the interest of keeping this on topic, everybody please only comment on the information presented in the thread. Stop with the useless posts, they are against the site rules. Thank you.
 
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Well... carbon is the 15th most abundant element found on the earth... however, activated carbon in a filter cartridge is not the same as co2 :)
 
Forget the stupid carbon... Its about bacteria if you wanna talk about carbon start another thread. Im talking about bacteria which has little to do with carbon. The coal itself is the magic art of bacteria growth... The carbon is just a bonus. Thats it.

What kind of hypocrisy is this? You very clearly state "bacteria has little to do with carbon" yet you state "coal is the magic art of bacteria growth, carbon is just a bonus". Coal is on average made of 60-90+% carbon, depending on the type. How coal "magically" contributes to bacterial growth is beyond reasonable comprehension. Some scientific documentation of your wonderful theory would be quite enlightening.
 
At the moment you have bacteria that eat chemicals in the water as well as fish pee. The fish pee combined with these bact produce ammonia, which is why the aquarium ammonia levels raise up. But not for long...
Fish "pee" is ammonia. There is no bacteria involved in this step.


Suddenly your scared as the ammonia is gone but nitrat and nitrie have gone up. Now there is a new kid on the block that eats Ammonia but pees nitrogen. The ammonia bacteria has already settled in the filter and gravel/sand, and these guys are going nuts floating around the water on an eating frenzy. Its like a Chinese buffet for them. Then...
Ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate are all nitrogen, with the primary difference being oxidation states. You should correct your terminology so that you can communicate your point better.


A third bacteria comes in that makes everything all better. These bacteria are nitrogen fixation bacteria. They eat nitrate and nitrite and turn it in to oxygen and carbon. Under a microscope the look like little pills that have a tail and swim. They also are the bact that eat excess fish food, poop, and other gunk.
*Second bacteria.
They turn nitrite into nitrate, while consuming oxygen. Carbon is not involved (that would be nuclear fission). They are not the bacteria that eats organic waste, those are the heterotrophs (as opposed to the autotrophic nitrogen bacteria)

No they do not, the filter media is only there to provide a place for the bacteria to colonize. The charcoal in the filter bags not only puts carbon in the water but makes the filter attractive for bacteria to settle in and call home. All bacteria in the tank originate from the water added and the air.
The bit about carbon is wrong, but that's another point. It's true though that bacteria colonize the activated carbon, but that's not in disagreement.


MYTH 2: Constant water changes are needed during the cycle.

Think of the old west. Aside from train robbers and the gold rush, things in the west were pretty rural. The average town was maybe 50-300 people with nothing else around for miles... That is your fish tank in bacteria. Imagine if lincoln went in and bulldozed every town in the west because there were gunslingers everywhere... The west would never have been settled like today. California would still be nothing but back hills and mountaineers. The same goes for your fish tank, if you constantly change the water during this cycle you are not letting the new settlers to move in, which prolongs the whole cycle. Ideally you want to speed up the cycle and make it as inviting as u can for microbs.
I'm not sure what point your analogy is serving here, but the bacteria in question grow and live on surfaces, so water changes largely don't affect them, assuming you dechlor and everything.


Some might but not all. It can help ensure none of them die if you add air stones. The gases coming in the tank have a lower mass then the ammonia and nitrogen... This means the harmful stuff gets pushed upwards in the tank and can not diffuse into the fishes gills as easily...
It means no such thing. Gases don't work like that, especially not dissolved gases.
Which if you understand any of that, understand atleast that its a good thing. Salt can also help as the salt will try to stay at the bottom of the tank and the ammonia and nitrogen will float to the top. As Ammonia and nitrogen have a lower atomic mass then salt.
That's not how solution chemistry works in the slightest. That's actually one of the fundamental differences between solution chemistry and non-solution chemistry. Atomic masses very rarely affect physical properties in the way you're describing.


Yes and no. Stress coat only nourishes the bacteria and feeds them.
No it doesn't. It affects the fish, not the bacteria.
It dosnt add the bacteria at all it just makes it so they are healthy and reproduce faster rather then with out it.
As above, you're not grasping what stress coat does. It augments a fish's slime coat.



Ideally water changes should be about 30% a week during the maturing cycle. And 10% there after. The cycle can range between a week to 3 months depending on the size of tank and how much space (filter, amount of gravel, etc..) bacteria have to populate.
The time spent cycling doesn't have anything to do with tank size, and usually nothing to do with the substrate available. Rather, it's limited by the generation time of the bacteria. An unseeded cycle should never take less than a month.

You can make the tank more inviting by adding that coal from the filter bag to the substrate, you can also use substrate from an already cycled tank. Even taking the filter from an older tank and rinsing it out in the new tank is ideal. Yes it will get ichky but it will clear. In nature nothing can live in clear water, actually clear water is a bad sign. Why would that be different in your living room?
You're not offbase by suggesting that you should seed a new filter with media from an old filter, but you're also confusing autotrophic and heterotrophic bacteria again, with the later not affecting ammonia, and commonly being the free floating cloudy bacteria you often see in tanks.


The life in a fish tank is not limited to just the fish. Every square micro meter is a living breathing ecosystem. Each bacteria feeds off the other which is why the cycle comes in stages. As the ammonia bacteria populate, soon the ammonia eating bacteria follow. If you dont understand this cycle you have no business giving people advice.
Once again, those are the same bacteria. Ammonia is the naturally produced waste product of fish.
 
Your right it does not disolve... It creates a covalent bond with oxygen in the water this creating... Drumroll... CO2

The whole carbon thing is kind of a red herring here. His point with the carbon is that it provides more surface area for the bacteria to live on, thereby speeding up the cycle (I think? Was that your point?). As I pointed out, what's important in cycle speed is A) The initial population of bacteria present and B) The generation time of the two species of bacteria, with the nitrite > nitrate bacteria having the longer one at around 18h (if I remember correctly).

The chemistry of carbon, however, is something near and dear to my heart considering my background in organic chemistry. Activated carbon is more similarly molecularly to diamond in that they're both essentially giant chunks of carbon atoms bound to each other, only really differing in the geometry of the bonds. They're both in the same oxidation state though. In order to go from elemental carbon (both diamond and charcoal) to CO2, you would need a lot of energy and some pretty intense chemistry, which is why activated carbon will remain in a tank for years and not simply break down.
 
What kind of hypocrisy is this? You very clearly state "bacteria has little to do with carbon" yet you state "coal is the magic art of bacteria growth, carbon is just a bonus". Coal is on average made of 60-90+% carbon, depending on the type. How coal "magically" contributes to bacterial growth is beyond reasonable comprehension. Some scientific documentation of your wonderful theory would be quite enlightening.

coal increases surface area... carbon is the by product of the coal... I have better things to do now, so google what ever you dont understand.
 
This thread has been an interesting read, thank you for a lovely Sunday evening's reading. I'm not going to comment on the multitude of assumptions and assertions made without scientific proof, those have been beaten to death.
The basics of the nitrogen cycle at question are:
Ammonia, NH3 is produced by the animals in the aquarium. This form of nitrogenous waste is very toxic to fish in high concentrations (greater than 0.5 parts per million)
Bacteria (nitrosomonas) convert this ammonia into nitrite (NO2). This form of nitrogenous compound is still very toxic to fish (again greater than 0.5 parts per million.
As the NO2 builds, another species of bacteria (Nitrobacter) converts the nitrite into Nitrate (NO3). This form of nitrogenous compound is still toxic to fish, but less toxic than the previous forms of nitrogen compounds (generally over 40 parts per million). This 80 fold difference allows us time to change the water (or have plants to absorb the nitrate) to prevent poisoning our fish.
It's very simple chemistry.
Carbon has nothing to do with it. Neither does magic.
This is from my education in organic and inorganic chemistry, as well as experience and a few sources other than "google because I say so."
 
coal increases surface area... carbon is the by product of the coal... I have better things to do now, so google what ever you dont understand.

You stated earlier that extra filter pads will do the same thing as carbon or coal. So how is coal the "magic art of bacteria growth," if you can get the same (and a probably better) effect by just using extra pads?
 
You stated earlier that extra filter pads will do the same thing as carbon or coal. So how is coal the "magic art of bacteria growth," if you can get the same (and a probably better) effect by just using extra pads?

... Look at the pads see how they have holes and more or less are held together by a mesh of strings... Thats called surface area. Because the bag is using all 3 dimensional space rather then just being a flat surface. The more space used = the more space bacteria have a place to grab on to.

Compare it to a plastic bag. The bag does not have pores and therefore has less surface area (not to mention it wont let water flow). If you stuck a couple of pads in without the carbon you give the bacteria more space to colonize then just one bag with coal.

The bacteria dont care about the coal, they care about a dark space that has water flowing in it. The coal can add nutrients in the water, it can give off carbon, it can add surface area for bact. But it dosnt make the bact. any more or less special.
 
Also because some one said something about bacteria not producing ammonia. Yes there are bacteria that produce amonia in the tank... Dont believe me, then start a tank that has no fish and observe the tank will still have an ammonia spike as if it were cycleing.
 
This thread has been an interesting read, thank you for a lovely Sunday evening's reading. I'm not going to comment on the multitude of assumptions and assertions made without scientific proof, those have been beaten to death.
The basics of the nitrogen cycle at question are:
Ammonia, NH3 is produced by the animals in the aquarium. This form of nitrogenous waste is very toxic to fish in high concentrations (greater than 0.5 parts per million)
Bacteria (nitrosomonas) convert this ammonia into nitrite (NO2). This form of nitrogenous compound is still very toxic to fish (again greater than 0.5 parts per million.
As the NO2 builds, another species of bacteria (Nitrobacter) converts the nitrite into Nitrate (NO3). This form of nitrogenous compound is still toxic to fish, but less toxic than the previous forms of nitrogen compounds (generally over 40 parts per million). This 80 fold difference allows us time to change the water (or have plants to absorb the nitrate) to prevent poisoning our fish.
It's very simple chemistry.
Carbon has nothing to do with it. Neither does magic.
This is from my education in organic and inorganic chemistry, as well as experience and a few sources other than "google because I say so."

Not to be nitpicking but just wanted to clarify that ammonia toxicity is highly dependent on ph/temperature and each species involved, so one can't accurately apply a hard number on it without applying these factors.
 
... Look at the pads see how they have holes and more or less are held together by a mesh of strings... Thats called surface area. Because the bag is using all 3 dimensional space rather then just being a flat surface. The more space used = the more space bacteria have a place to grab on to.

Compare it to a plastic bag. The bag does not have pores and therefore has less surface area (not to mention it wont let water flow). If you stuck a couple of pads in without the carbon you give the bacteria more space to colonize then just one bag with coal.

The bacteria dont care about the coal, they care about a dark space that has water flowing in it. The coal can add nutrients in the water, it can give off carbon, it can add surface area for bact. But it dosnt make the bact. any more or less special.
I agree that charcoal does not make bacteria special. I also agree that bacteria need surface area to cling to. I do argue that other filter media is just as good though for providing surface area for them and that charcoal is not needed for this purpose.
Other things besides fish do produce ammonia, but I would argue that the majority of the ammonia you see in a fish tank cycle is from fish excrement. If I just leave out plain water, it doesn't get ammonia in it. Also, I have seen many people try to cycle tanks without a source of ammonia (ie. fish poop or bottled ammonia)and never get an ammonia spike.
 
Also because some one said something about bacteria not producing ammonia. Yes there are bacteria that produce amonia in the tank... Dont believe me, then start a tank that has no fish and observe the tank will still have an ammonia spike as if it were cycleing.

Bacteria don't produce ammonia. You can't produce ammonia from no nitrogen source.
 
I agree that charcoal does not make bacteria special. I also agree that bacteria need surface area to cling to. I do argue that other filter media is just as good though for providing surface area for them and that charcoal is not needed for this purpose.
Other things besides fish do produce ammonia, but I would argue that the majority of the ammonia you see in a fish tank cycle is from fish excrement. If I just leave out plain water, it doesn't get ammonia in it. Also, I have seen many people try to cycle tanks without a source of ammonia (ie. fish poop or bottled ammonia)and never get an ammonia spike.

Indeed it does, simply add gravel to that glass and wait a week. Though your right any dark space that has stuff in it with cycled water is ideal for bact. To live... Its why fluvial works so well
 
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