Hybrids/Crossbreeds

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on the topic of hybrids... double hybrid all the way across the sky.
taken from cichlid parrot flowerhorn reg cichlasoma sp. hybrid - Segrest Farms
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This is a answer to the OP I dident read thru all 9 pages.

First who cares if a fish is "Man made" dose it really? Why would would it? It eats, swims, lives just like any other fish out there and makes a great fish and a great addition.
 
I think people should care if fish are man made. The same argument can be made for fish that have been dyed, tattooed, and Lord knows what else. The OP took it too far with the joke about killing the fish, and I don't blame the fish themselves, but hybridization is a sticky subject.

If you want to treat fish as objects or furniture pieces that's one thing, but if you do have any concern about different species and the fishkeepers role in conservation of said species then the prospect of hybridizing might be a tough one.
 
I think people should care if fish are man made. The same argument can be made for fish that have been dyed, tattooed, and Lord knows what else. The OP took it too far with the joke about killing the fish, and I don't blame the fish themselves, but hybridization is a sticky subject.

If you want to treat fish as objects or furniture pieces that's one thing, but if you do have any concern about different species and the fishkeepers role in conservation of said species then the prospect of hybridizing might be a tough one.
Oops. When did I joke about killing fish? Sorry, I don't remember that. I will re-read the thread!
 
This is a answer to the OP I dident read thru all 9 pages.

First who cares if a fish is "Man made" dose it really? Why would would it? It eats, swims, lives just like any other fish out there and makes a great fish and a great addition.
I do think it matters. I think the individual fish are important, but part of the reason I asked this question is that some of the man-made hybrids are said to not eat, swim, and live just like other fish. Some of them specificly have been bred in way that is said to inhibit normal behaviors that other fish have. I specified man-made mostly so people would know which fish I meant and I was not refering to just any old random hybrid. I do suggest you read the thread, people answered some really good things. :)
 
My fault, I was talking about page #12 post #111 and onward, this thread has been going so long that I got confused about the OP.
OK, cool. Yeah, I was really afraid I had made a joke somewhere and didn't even remember! No worries, I just was temporarily afraid memory loss had already set in. :)
 
On the subject of hybrids I like what ECO said on page 5 of this thread makes a lot of sense. If you google hybrid dogs and see all the breeds listed how many of us out there own a "hybrid" dog? Probably a lot of us! I have a friend who is a vet and says that the hybrid dogs can be very healthy, and you usually don't see some of the traits like hip dysplasia for example that are known traits in certain so called " purebreds" . So I'm sorry I know I'm comparing apples to oranges but I still don't see the big deal about people owning hybrid fish, I realize it's just a matter of opinion some people like them and some don't. But can someone that's owned a hybrid give me an example of their bad quality of life? I've had my BP now for almost 4 years and he seems just as happy as my other fish except he's a bit more timid and shy than some and he's always been very healthy and I've never had to treat him for anything. Is this just an exception to the rule? Have I just been lucky? I just wonder because besides glofish that died he's the only hybrid I own currently and I just want to know what to look for as far as diseases and such?? :)
 
Tigroscr said:
On the subject of hybrids I like what ECO said on page 5 of this thread makes a lot of sense. If you google hybrid dogs and see all the breeds listed how many of us out there own a "hybrid" dog?

I guess it depends on how you define "hybrid"...but IMO, unless you have a wolf laying at the foot of your bed, all of us have hybrid dogs. Even those considered purebreds are just standards which are originally derived from other already existing species. All "dogs" are man-made animals formed over 15,000 years of selective breeding by humans.

I'm not arguing for / against (though I'm 100% against dyed, tattooed, deformed, etc...), but there is a bigger picture and a lot more history than just hybrids = good or bad. I think it's interesting that most of us would value our dogs over our fish...but I've never heard a single uproar based on the way people have shaped (deformed?) dogs over time.

*My Miniature Pinscher just gave me a funny look :D
 
eco23 said:
I guess it depends on how you define "hybrid"...but IMO, unless you have a wolf laying at the foot of your bed, all of us have hybrid dogs. Even those considered purebreds are just standards which are originally derived from other already existing species. All "dogs" are man-made animals formed over 15,000 years of selective breeding by humans.

I'm not arguing for / against (though I'm 100% against dyed, tattooed, deformed, etc...), but there is a bigger picture and a lot more history than just hybrids = good or bad. I think it's interesting that most of us would value our dogs over our fish...but I've never heard a single uproar based on the way people have shaped (deformed?) dogs over time.

*My Miniature Pinscher just gave me a funny look :D

Ha! Ha! I agree with you 100%! And I also think the dyed and tattooed fish etc is rather cruel! I'm sure if I do enough research even my jack russell terriers or "terrors" as some people call them were hybridized at some point!! But you definitely don't see any uproar about dogs and hybridization!! And a lot of people do value their dogs more than fish so you'd think IT would be a much bigger issue!! I just wish I knew what crippling disease to look for in my BP so that I may be prepared ( I love him so much) and would hate to lose him and he seems happy as a little lark!! :)
 
Hybrids Are NOT Inherently Wrong

There is a lot of debate and misunderstanding about hybridization in fish. Many feel it is wrong for a number of reasons including ‘playing God’, ‘messing with nature’, or unknown consequences.

Hybridization is generally defined as a cross between two different species. This usually creates offspring of a variety not found in nature. Many people feel this is an atrocity. They feel it is playing God or messing with nature. But in fact hybridization is a very common act in nature, even being the cause of speciation of many species. Some species take part in it so often it is hard to distinguish them as a unique species. To properly understand hybridization and its consequences, people need to understand exactly what a species is, what hybridization is, its role in nature, and the process of speciation.

The most common definition of a species is ‘a group of organisms that can interbreed and produce fertile offspring’. Many people will further specify that definition by adding ‘in nature’. In his textbook Evolution, Futuyma defines a species as ‘the members of a group of populations that interbreed or potentially interbreed with one another under natural conditions’ (552). This definition follows the biological species concept, that a species must be reproductively isolated or that it cannot interbreed with other species to be classified as a separate species (Lawrey). Many species are extremely challenging to observe and monitor in the wild, so it is hard to determine which individuals are interbreeding so we cannot be sure what all does and does not take place in the wild. In addition, there are many cases of natural hybridization between two or more long-standing species.

Hybridization is so common that there is currently a debate as to whether the red wolf (Canis rufus) is even a unique species or a hybrid between the gray wolf (C. lupus) and the coyote (C. latrans) (Lawrey). Genetic analysis has revealed that there is substantial cross-breeding between these two or three species. Recently a hybrid between a polar bear (Ursus maritimus) and a grizzly or brown bear (U. arctos) was shot and killed in Canada (Associated Press, “Wild”). Based on the biological species concept this would make the two species of bears actually only one since they can successfully reproduce in the wild. Phylogenetic evidence supports that polar bears are no more than a subspecies of grizzly bear. Many people are now familiar with ligers, the resulting offspring between a male lion (Panthera leo) and a female tiger (P. tigris). The offspring are fertile. Another example is that of macaw parrots. When the blue-and-gold macaw (Ara ararauna) is crossed with the green-winged macaw (A. chloroptera) the result is the harlequin macaw, a relatively common captive pet (see Figure A). Many species of the Swordtail genus Xiphophorus spp. of fish can interbreed with one another (Lawrey). In addition, many species were formed via hybridization. Many plant groups contain many hybrids and potentially hybridizing species (Lawrey). This has obvious evolutionary value to the organisms with that combination.

The classic situation of speciation involves a single species that for some reason begins to become two species. There are many ways this can occur. In some cases a new trait appears within a population that can allow for sexual selection, such as some males developing a unique coloration. In other cases a physical barrier can separate populations of the species, such as a shallow sea or a mountain range. When this happens the subsequent two populations are then genetically isolated. This means that any change in the genome in a population due to mutation, genetic drift, etc. becomes unique to that population. As more and more genetic differences build up the two populations become more divergent, and less like the original species or each other. Over time this can generate entirely new species.

An example of this type of speciation is the speciation of two mosquito species in London. One, Culex pipiens, is a common urban mosquito species found in London. However, in the London Underground there is a genetically distinct and reproductively isolated species, C. molestus (Lawrey). In this situation the construction of the London Underground created a new, not yet exploited niche for a mosquito. A population was formed by individuals of C. pipiens that populated the London Underground. Over time this newly isolated population developed genetic changes that made it unique from the parent species. Eventually this new population became unique enough from the parent species that it became genetically distinct and reproductively isolated and therefore a new species.

In many cases the isolating barriers are later removed. If the populations have not fully speciated and are not reproductively isolated, then they remain as populations of one species, even if they are morphologically very different. Because they can appear to be so different morphologically they can be classified as different species. As more information is gathered scientists discover that many species are actually hybrids or commonly hybridize with each other.

Hybridization is actually one method of speciation. Research done with sunflowers showed how the hybridization of two closely related species could yield super-combinations that were better adapted and therefore more fit (Indiana). This can result in diploid species (the genomes of the two species are combined into one, the size of the two genomes put together). This is actually a natural process, common in plants but rare (although not non-existent) in animals. (Futuyma)

Hybridization is a natural process. It is a natural form of speciation and species preservation. Hybridizing in captivity is not harmful when certain things are avoided. It is possible to produce hybrids that have physical deformities such as mouths that are unable to close, or bodies so misshapen that even swimming is a challenge. These crosses should be avoided, already produced broods entirely culled, and the cross not made again. But just because something is a hybrid does not make it inherently wrong. If natural limitations are bypassed then the person is jumping hurdles that nature has set in place that have limited that cross. In these cases the two species are separate enough that hybridization should be avoided. Cases like this would be situations where breeding was done artificially (artificial insemination) and forced the cross even though the fish followed nature’s limitations.

If two species cross under their own will and produce healthy, fertile offspring, then by the biological species concept’s definition of a species they are actually the same species. They may look different or be currently classified as separate species, but those may be false classifications. This is such as tricky subject in science that many scientists do not even believe in the idea of a species. There are no definitive barriers in most cases so we as humans cannot make up barriers and definitions just so that things are easier for us to understand and we cannot pigeonhole them just to suit our expectations of simplicity. Evolution is not done. Things are constantly changing and species are still in the process of evolution, still changing. Some are definitely too different to hybridize. Others are barely isolated enough to be separate populations and subspecies, but since they look different (something that can change VERY quickly under natural selection) we decided to classify them as separate species. So if hybrids are healthy and fertile then the two populations are not actually different species, but different subspecies.

What about artificial selection? It has produced some extremely deformed breeds. Goldfish are an excellent example. They have been domesticated long enough to produce major alterations from the natural form. Some of the breeds and individuals are so deformed that they cannot or can barely swim, breathe, have proper digestive flow, see, or maintain buoyancy. Yet because these are not hybrids it is okay? This is okay but a perfectly healthy animal that simply has a different coloration but happens to be a hybrid is wrong?

We really need to step back and look at what the actual consequences of what we do are. If there is no actual harm then it is not bad. If we produce fish that have special needs, deformities, or limitations (whether they are hybrids or not) then we have done something wrong.

Works cited and consulted:

Alaska Department of Fish and Game, “Alaska’s Bears” 2008 retrieved April 30, 2008 http://www.wildlife.alaska.gov/index...dfg=bears.main

Alcock, J., Animal Behavior (8th ed.) Massachusetts, Sinauer, (2005)

-Associated Press, “Wild find: Half grizzly, half polar bear” 2008 retrieved April 30, 2008 Hairy hybrid: Half grizzly, half polar bear - World news - World environment - msnbc.com

-Futuyma, D. J., Evolution Massachusetts, Sinauer, (2005)

-Indiana University. “Cross-species Mating May Be Evolutionarily Important And Lead To Rapid Change, Say Indiana University Researchers” ScienceDaily (August 8, 2003) retrieved April 3, 2008 http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0808081854.htm

-Lawrey, J. D., GMU BIOL 471 Evolution Lecture notes/slides (Spring 2008)

Pages, M., et al. “Combined analysis of fourteen nuclear genes refines the Ursidae phylogeny” Molecular Phylogenetics and Evolution vol.47 (2008): 73-83

Wauer, L., “Parrots we’ve seen during our travels” retrieved April 30, 2008
http://www.billybear4kids.com/animal...s/toes28c.html
 
I find your post very interesting and informative Thanks for helping me to better understand hybridization! You have my vote!!! :)
 
Good report. I'm sort of glad my first systematics class dispelled my beliefs about what a species is so these hybridization topics don't seem so controversial.
 
I guess it depends on how you define "hybrid"...but IMO, unless you have a wolf laying at the foot of your bed, all of us have hybrid dogs. Even those considered purebreds are just standards which are originally derived from other already existing species. All "dogs" are man-made animals formed over 15,000 years of selective breeding by humans.

I'm not arguing for / against (though I'm 100% against dyed, tattooed, deformed, etc...), but there is a bigger picture and a lot more history than just hybrids = good or bad. I think it's interesting that most of us would value our dogs over our fish...but I've never heard a single uproar based on the way people have shaped (deformed?) dogs over time.

*My Miniature Pinscher just gave me a funny look :D

I have a website on dogs and have done a ton of research on breeds. Every dog that you're likely to see is Canis lupus familiaris. They are hybrids between breeds or subspecies (for things like the Czech Wolfdog and Saarloos Wolfhound). The only cross species breed I know of is the Sulimov Dog from Russia which is a dog X golden jackal hybrid used for bomb detection. Hybrid breeds are much more common with cats. I could list a whole bunch of those.

I agree though about a lot of people complaining more about deformed fish than dogs. Some do complain about the dogs though. Off the top of my head I could name you probably ten breeds that were developed to be a healthy alternative to the Bulldog and the health problems associated with it. The champion AKC German Shepherds in the US are considered deformed by most of the rest of the world due to the angulation they have. Manx cats often have spinal problems, Ojos Azules have cranial defects. The lists go on and on. The said truth is that humans don't always have the best interests of animals in mind and that's over the entire range of species kept as pets. If someone thinks it looks cool or someone thinks money could be made then we'll keep hearing about things like balloon mollies or cichlid hybrids that can't swim or eat.
 
On the subject of hybrids I like what ECO said on page 5 of this thread makes a lot of sense. If you google hybrid dogs and see all the breeds listed how many of us out there own a "hybrid" dog? Probably a lot of us! I have a friend who is a vet and says that the hybrid dogs can be very healthy, and you usually don't see some of the traits like hip dysplasia for example that are known traits in certain so called " purebreds" . So I'm sorry I know I'm comparing apples to oranges but I still don't see the big deal about people owning hybrid fish, I realize it's just a matter of opinion some people like them and some don't. But can someone that's owned a hybrid give me an example of their bad quality of life? I've had my BP now for almost 4 years and he seems just as happy as my other fish except he's a bit more timid and shy than some and he's always been very healthy and I've never had to treat him for anything. Is this just an exception to the rule? Have I just been lucky? I just wonder because besides glofish that died he's the only hybrid I own currently and I just want to know what to look for as far as diseases and such?? :)
Honstly, I do have an ethical problem with owning some breeds of dog (unless it was a rescued dog). But, that is a different issue, so I would rather not stray into it. I am just saying that my views do only apply to fish.
 
I feel if we have unquestionable moral obligations to one type of living creature, it follows that we have unquestionable moral obligations to all types of living creatures and that is not a sentiment I can rationally agree with at this point in time.
 
I really like the community discussions on this forum. It is rather refreshing....

I don't know exactly where I stand on hybrid fish. It is a tough topic. There are so many factors to be considered, and as others have stated, things like personal knowledge, religious beliefs and experiences will greatly affect our personal view points.

The first time I saw a BP I thought it was the coolest looking fish I had ever seen (though I did think that about a lot of different fish when we first jumped into the hobby). It wasn't too long after that I learned it was a hybrid. My feelings ping ponged around a bit and I *think they finally settled on somewhere around the mixed feeling/grey area. A part of me still wants one, but from the possible problems they could have I am not sure I would want to support the people who make them or deal with it.

And I think that really is the point of all this. Too many people see things in life as black and white, when really there is a range or a continuum. There are extreme examples at both ends (wolfs to glow in the dark moneys) and lots of things in between.

I think I fit some where in that in between area. I would probably be okay owning a fish that was hybrid (given that it was not one of the extreme ones) and probably more likely to own a fish that is selectively bred for a trait. Actually I kind of already do...I have three "green cobra" fancy guppies and a veiltail betta with a pretty long tail (though I didn't buy him for his tail length, but his colors).

Bit of a side note. I am reading a really interesting book for my physiology class that (in the broader sense of the topic) applies to the theme of this thread. "The Immortal Life of Henrietta Lacks"
http://www.amazon.com/Immortal-Life...2181/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1320992874&sr=8-1

Its about the HeLa cells (HeLa - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) and the woman they came from. It talks about all the things that happen to her, her family and children as well as the medical community and their research from the 50's till now. You might be shocked at the things they would do to people in the 50's and 60's. If we treated people the way we did back then (just 50-60 years ago) it is not surprising in the least that we do what we do to fish.
 
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